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[00:00:00] This is the Elk Hunt Podcast home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host Cody Rich, from fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends. We have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content.
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Hey Bob. Hey Cody. How you doing? Pretty good. How about yourself? Good. Real good. Alrighty, Bob, welcome to the podcast. How are we doing today? Good, thanks Cody. Happy to be here. Happy. And talk about my favorite subject, favorite. It's both of [00:02:00] our favorite subjects. Talk about elk hunting. Everyone loves a good elk cutting story.
I was telling you that. Um, you've been in the game a while. So let's give us, uh, give the audience at 30,000 foot view. When did you start elk hunting? How long you been elk hunting? What do you, what do you know about it? Okay, so, all right, we'll start off a little bit of story here and some history about me.
So, I grew up in, um, Western New York State in the heart of the Catskills. My grandfather had a couple horses, um, between him and my dad. I grew up hunting white tails and, uh, chasing wild turkeys as I transitioned into elk hunting, which I'll get to in a minute. You know, calling turkeys with a diaphragm made it pretty easy for me to migrate into elk, at least from the standpoint of making cow sounds.
Yeah. But, um, in early 94, and I was in my, in my mid thirties, I had an opportunity to move to Colorado. Um, you know, at that time I worked for, IBM had three young, real young kids and, uh, it was at a time when IBM was bailing out New York State. Wasn't sure if I was gonna keep my [00:03:00] job or not if the way things were going there, but I got this opportunity to move to Colorado and um, they offered to pay my move and live in a significant promotion and all the bells and whistles that would get your attention.
So my wife and I came out, checked it out and um, you know, we ended up moving here in early 1994. Now, the thing I'll tell you about that is, is that because I grew up in a family that was deep in hunting tradition, started hunting with my grandfather and my dad from the time I was just a little guy following around my dream in reading an outdoor life in sports of field was always to hunt elk.
So here's my opportunity to go to Colorado and I was gonna get a chance to hunt elk, which I did my first fall. The first fall I was here, killed my first bull that fall. Um. And it kind of went on from there. But, uh, it was kind of really a dream come true. You know, first 14 years I lived here, I hunted elk on my own.
I was like a sponge, you know, trying to learn country, learn about horses, learn [00:04:00] about mules, learn about packing. And I learned a lot of that stuff the hard way and um, you know, had a blast. And then as I started getting on in my corporate career, you know, and things started changing in corporate America, moving work offshore to other countries and stuff, you know, I said, man, I don't know if I can deal with this much longer and teamed up with my wife and we figured out a plan to get me out.
So lo and behold, the last, uh, six years I was at IBMI was guiding elk hunt fulltime for five of those. Oh, nice. And last fall, I wrapped up my 17th year guiding elk hunts. I don't guide elk hunts full time anymore at age 69, but I did for nine years, seven weeks, every fall. Really got after it hard. And I still do some.
For some clients that I, I've known over the years or people that hit me up and we kind of hit it off. I'll still guide, you know, one or two weeks a year and then I call for my son. I hunt first rifle, we hunt mule deer. So, you know, long story short, [00:05:00] I guess, you know, I've been blessed that, you know, I started of always dreaming to hunt elk and I've been living the dream for the last 32 years and I'm still going.
So yeah. That's, that's amazing. First and foremost, I hope I'm still cha well I will be still chasing elk when I'm 69 years old and, uh, that's kind of been, you know, on my mind it's like I wanna still be doing this when I'm 70, 32 years. If you could look back and go to that 1994, maybe even through nine, through the nineties, you know, those early years, what advice would you give yourself with all the, uh, experience and knowledge that you have now?
You know, as I look back and, you know, the way I killed elk, um. Not bragging, but the first 14 years I was here, I killed 13 bulls. And you know, I, I did that strictly because I was in really good shape, which I still work really hard at and why I can still do this. But I got to places that your average guy did not want to go and pack an elk out.
In [00:06:00] fact, my friends used to get mad at me and say, I can't believe you shot an elk up here. But, um, you know, probably the biggest advice I would give is that most people getting into elk hunting, um, you know, come from a white tail background, they've hunted white tails before. And what I could tell you is, I mean, certainly there's some skills from hunting white tails that, you know, translate.
But in terms of the style that you hunt, you know, getting up in your stand in the dark, getting down in the dark, that's not elk hunting. Elk hunting is more like hunting wild turkeys. Um, you know, and the more you can learn about elk and the country that you're gonna hunt. The better off you're gonna be, and you really have to put your time in there.
Now, of course, there's tools nowadays that I didn't have when I started this, like OnX, right? Which helps a lot, which I have a love hate relationship with OnX. I never used to see people in the places I went, and now I see people all the time. So it's, it certainly serves a purpose, but, um, that's the biggest advice, you know?
And if you're new to hunting [00:07:00] overall, you know, the biggest advice I'd give you is, is that if you wanna, if you wanna accelerate your learning curve, hunt with a buddy that has experience. If you can afford it, hunt with an outfitter, but you know, do your homework there because there's lots of outfitters there out there that are willing to take your money.
But, you know, there's also a lot of good outfitters and guides out there. You know, ones like, the way I always looked at was if I had a client that wanted to learn. You know, of course I was all about trying to get them an elk, but I was also all about trying to teach them everything that I knew where I could help 'em.
So, you know, get some help, I think is the other advice I would pass along. Well, I would, I'm kind of curious, what was it like hunting elk in the nineties in Colorado? I feel like, man, it didn't hardly existed compared to what it does now. You know? No one, no one really hunted elk. I just imagine you, you every trailhead, you know, there's elk screaming.
You never had to go more than a mile from the trailhead. Like, what was it really like? Oh, it, it was ridiculous. I mean, [00:08:00] we did get the places that I first started hunting where I four wheeled in and then, you know, I rented horses and went in on a horseback. You know, I would see elk in those places, but there was some pressure there.
What I really noticed was, I think it was, um. 1997 is the first year that I actually got brave enough to rent a bunch of horses with a couple of buddies who knew enough, never took horseback riding lessons. I got a lot of war stories I can tell you about that, where I was the only guy that knew how to saddle and bridle a horse.
But, um, I packed in seven miles and this area that I hunted for a long time that I still hunt today. I'll never forget the first year I went back there to scout when I was going in there, getting ready, thinking about going in there this fall, I went into the bottom of this mountain bowl and this was like two o'clock in the afternoon and I let out a cow call and there was like five to seven different bulls from around the, around the bowl that bugle back at me.
And I said, I'm getting outta here. Yeah. And I just couldn't wait to get [00:09:00] back there. And, you know, I killed the bull back there that fall and it just got better and better because then the operation I ended up guiding for, they actually operated in that area. Although I, one thing that I did. I worked hard at when I was hunting there, when I wasn't working there was, I tried to, you know, I knew where the Outfitters camps were.
I got to learn where they wanted to take their hunters, and I went in a different direction. I wasn't there to have competition. I was there to be by myself, you know? Yeah. Um, so when you think back on 32 years of elk hunting, um, I saw this quote the other day and it was really good. It was sending you like, what, what was your best hunting trip?
And the guy starts talking about like, and there's a few that come to mind, but like, they all kind of blend together and it's just years of memories, years of places. And it's like, how lucky are we to have lived a life full of elk hunting? Which is like, they all kind of run together and there's so many moments from different hunts and there's so many [00:10:00] pieces that it's hard to be like, well, this one elk hunt, right?
Like, they all kind of run together. I am sure that you have a lot of that. They, they all kind run together. But if you could think about. The most memorable l cutting experience? Like what, what, what comes to mind when you think of that? You know, I, I'm gonna say, and, and this one doesn't, I mean, I can share some about myself, but, um, part of the reason I guide is 'cause I enjoy taking other people out and the people aspects and, and sharing this beautiful country and, and, and experience that we have here in the west.
So I'll go back to, it was in 2014. I had a, uh, a family from, um, from Illinois. And, uh, I had two of the, I had two of the boys, you know, at that time they, I don't remember what they were, they were around 30 years old and we were camped up on top of this mountain, you know, kind of out of the way. And we were running into this herd of elk every morning.
And honest to God, Cody, [00:11:00] there, there was a hundred head in this herd, right? But the right smack out in the middle of nowhere. And we would figure out how we would get across and we, we were laying on our bellies and the willows. And we watched that herd for two days. And you know, this was, this was actually a muzzle loader hunt.
And, um, I kept saying to my guys, I said, I know this has taken a lot of patience, but we gotta wait for our right opportunity. The hardest part we've solved. We know where there are, there's several really good bulls here in this group, screaming their bloody heads off. And, you know, they hung with me and they were patient on the third day, um, when we caught 'em up there again.
And they did finally what I wanted them to do. They, they, they took off, you know, like mid-morning and they went into this patch of dark timber. And I said to him, I said, when the last one goes in, the timber guys we're going. And we took off and we hustled across probably it was probably 150, 200 yards.
And we got 'em in there. I got, I got their breath [00:12:00] settled down. I got both of 'em set up. I started cow calling. Within five minutes, I had the first bull on the ground, right? This nice average, four by five. And I grabbed the younger guy and I said, come on, let's go. And we took off and we could hear the herd bull screaming.
And we set up on that herd bull, um, three different times. And he's screaming at me. And finally the fourth time we set up on him, we got close enough, you know, we took some risk and we got inside his comfort zone. And he came screaming in. And this young guy shut this beautiful six by six, probably a three 20 class bull at 28 yards with a muzzle loader.
And there, within 20 minutes we had two bulls on the ground. And it was just like, as a guy, it was a, as an elk hunter, it was a dream come true because. You know, we played our cards right and it panned out. And of course to those guys, you know, from then on, I, I couldn't do anything wrong. You know, I still hear from 'em today, but that was, that was a lot of fun.
A lot of fun. So, yeah, man, those moments where you get to call those bullseye and then killing two and [00:13:00] they, anytime you could kill two in a day is a great day. Two kinda one set up. I was blessed. I had, I had several occasions where I killed two in one morning. Um, I had one morning, I should have killed three, but.
You know, I had three hunters, but it just didn't work out. The one guy missed that, that was a rifle hunt. But still, I mean, that would've been, I was tired after two. I mean, I'm sure I would've found a way to skim quarter and cape a third one, but the guy missed. So it was, I remember, I remember being in my twenties and I think we killed five bulls in two days or whatever it was.
Um, and it was, yeah, like I look back at those days and it was like, man, I, I wouldn't wanna be one of those Skinners in the 18 hundreds that was just skinning them suckers all day long. It's, man, it's crazy. And the older I get the worse it is. Like I can barely do one elk now and like my back hurts, you know, like that's the worst part.
Cutting up. I'm with you. I've got rope in my pack for tying off legs and 'cause quite candidly, that's the only way I can do it by myself now. Yeah. You know, including, I'm not strong, you know, I'm, [00:14:00] you know, back to my high school weight now, 30 pounds heavier muscle weight when I first started this stuff, you know?
And um, that just age has a way of taking that away. You can't carry the weight in a good way, but I got a, I got rope in my pack and I'm tying off legs and when I get a bull, a lot of times, you know, they always die in the most ugly spots possible. Now you gotta roll this thing up uphill when you're getting ready to skin the other side.
Yeah. And um, you know, pulling the legs up as far up as I can, get 'em on a couple of trees and get the elk up on it side and then get behind it and try to give it the heave hole like you're pushing the sled in football practice, you know, so. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you know, you're 69 years old, you're still elk hunting, you're still getting after it.
What does it mean to be hunting elk at 70 and is there, is there sacrifices you make? Is there things you don't do that you wish you could do? Is there, is it just like you become older and wiser and now you don't have to hike as far, like what, what does hunting at 70 look like? [00:15:00] Well, you know, the, the first thing I'm gonna say is that you have to make lifestyle changes.
And what I mean by that, I mean, I never was a big drinker, but when I was younger I played a lot of competitive sports, particularly after college, you know, traveling tournaments, basketball and fast pitch softball and you're drinking beers and stuff. And you know, I don't drink much alcohol anymore. I mean, I'll have a drink, you know, two drinks at most of 'em in a social environment.
I don't drink that much. I pay attention to what I eat. Not that I don't ever go off the wagon with what I eat, but you know, and then the biggest thing is I live in the gym. I'm, when I'm not in the back country, or I'm not outdoors, you know, hunting or fly fishing, I'm in the gym five to six days a week.
I've modified my routine significantly. You know, as one example, um, when I was younger, I used to be able to squat a lot of weight. I don't do barbell squats anymore. Um, I use what's called the Rogue Belt Squat machine. There's a lot of different belt squats out there, but you know, the belt goes around your waist and you're actually [00:16:00] pulling, you know, with your legs.
You don't have the, the compression on your spine and on your hip and on your knees. So, you know, I've modified my living habits as well as my workout habits, but I haven't given up exercise, you know, and, you know, let's face it, as we get older, father time takes his swing at all of us in different ways.
And you know, the thing I'll tell you is, is that. Some of my buddies tease me, they say, you're the $6 million man. And to some degree they're right. I've, I've got two artificial hips I've worked on, on both shoulders, and I had a three level cervical neck fusion. All good is new, you know, and the key reason is I went to those operations healthy as I could be.
And you know, I worked really hard at the rehab and I listened to my therapist and everything else. And today's technology, they're pretty good at putting us back together. So that's, that's really key, you know, is the, probably the last thing I would say that if you can, but not everybody can do this. Not everybody's got the aptitude, you know, there is of course hunting the different seasons where if you hunt the [00:17:00] later seasons, you know, if you get snow, as you know, that can drive animals down, but you still gotta hike in it though, if you got snow where you're hunting.
And that's not easy either. Um. Definitely hunting with buddies is, is smart. You know, I did a lot of hunting on my own. I, I've got orders from headquarters here. My wife does not let me go by myself anymore. And then the last thing, you know, if, if you have access to horses and the inclination to learn to ride, that can help a lot.
And I'm, I've fortunate, I've gotten one really good young quarterhorse and I've got one really good mule and, um, I'm not bashful about using them to get my camp in and out to get meat in and out. They don't, you can't always get 'em to where you shoot 'em, but yeah, they definitely can save you a lot of miles of putting meat on your back, that's for sure.
What's your average season look like these days? My average What season? What's the, what's a hunting season look like? Um, my average season is I start, typically I guide, um, typically I guide a week or two in archery. I like guiding archery anymore. [00:18:00] I have guided first rifle two in recent times, and then this year I'm actually going with my son.
We're going planning to go for 12 days. I really want to try to, he's getting a little bit more time off from work, so I probably won't guide. I may guide second rifle this year, um, because, you know, archery, I'm gonna be tied up with my son and then, you know, I got a little bit of a break, kind of recoup my body.
And then I've got a good buddy of mine who I've guided with and hunted with a lot over the years. He's younger than I am. He lives in Wyoming. He's coming down to hunt with me again. First rifle. Um, we do that. I, I enjoy first rifle simply because, um, it's not quite as crowded as the other rifle seasons.
The elk are still high and um, they're still bugling most times. So you kind of get that experience. And then I'll probably hunt Mule Deer third rifle again with my son. So. Yeah, you got a lot of hunting still doing well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I easily get four weeks a year and sometimes five. So. Nice. So when you go say like hypothetically, uh, [00:19:00] let's look at this season, you're going with your son, archery season.
Are you guys gonna pack in? Are you gonna backpack, are you gonna horse pack? What's your last year? You know, last year we backpacked in, um, but this year I think we're gonna take my animals with me. It's a little bit of a pain because, you know, I mean the animals as good as they are about getting your stuff in.
Um, you know, the part that's tough is that, you know, you can't, you can't leave tied to a high line or tied to a tree days on end, right? You gotta come back some days, lunchtime, get 'em off, you know, of course water, 'em, hobble 'em, let 'em graze and give 'em some freedom, or they get pretty unruly. I mean, that's the plan right now.
I mean, we'll see, we got. Actually gonna hunt a little bit different area this year. I'm familiar with it from fishing but not from elk hunting. And so we're gonna go scout it a couple times and depending on how tough the hike is, we, we might decide to not take my stock because, you [00:20:00] know. I'd rather not go back to camp lunchtime, you know?
Right. I, I think that's like a misconception about stock animals. Like they, they, the best stock animals is like, the best case scenario for hunting is someone, you're some, somebody who's not hunting is packing in for you and dealing with stock or, you know, yeah. Run a camp because man, I've done it solo.
Um, and it's like just a pain in the butt. It's a lot, it's a lot of extra work. I don't think people understand how much extra work it is. And like, there's a lot of people that'll just tell you, you know what, I'll just pack the dang thing out myself 'cause like, it's just not worth it. Right. Uh, best case scenario, again, someone ride rides in and then rides out and, and is kind of on call and if you needed to come get an allocate, like it's right there, but generally speaking, that's a pretty hard situation to get.
Um, but having 'em with you man can be a pain. Um, and I've, I've done it both ways. It certainly, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I agree. And I mean, the other thing why I'm, I gotta look at where we're going and see what the terrain looks like and where. Get a [00:21:00] better feel of actually where we're gonna hunt. But, you know, the other thing I'd definitely like to do in today's day and age, 'cause we get so much pressure here during archery.
Now this area's a drawing unit where we're gonna go this year, so that'll help some. But I like the idea. I mean, I don't, I don't bring all my stuff in the first trip. I mean, number one, it's a lot of weight. You know, it's really hard to get your pack, even if you only bring a couple days of food, it's hard to get your pack below 50 pounds, you know?
Right. If you know, and, um, and plus I wanna, I want the ability that if we get into an area, and let's say we run into a lot of hunters, or there's just no elk there. I mean, after a day, two days, I'm pulling up and I, I wanna be able, mobile, I wanna be able to move. So, um, leaving some stuff at the truck can be a good idea.
And you know, the worst case is you gotta make a trip back and you know, you got your pack empty, you go get some more food, maybe a change of clothes and it's no big deal. Yeah. You know. Uh, I'm, yeah, I'm a very big fan of staying mobile and I think it's so important in col in places like Colorado, um, Colorado [00:22:00] particularly, uh, just because there, like he, he may, it may have been the best basin of your entire life for the last three years.
And you go back there this year and it's, you know, six of your best friends. You don't know why. Um, yeah, it just changes. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, I mean, you've hunted Colorado for 32 years. You've seen the evolution of kind of the influx of our tree hunters, if you will, the OnX problem, uh, where it's like, you know, people are everywhere.
How has it changed your tactics? 'cause you go back to 1997, you're calling in two bulls on a muzzle loader season. It probably wouldn't happen today. Uh, right. So like, I, I'd be curious just like, how, how, how has tactics evolved in the uh, well, you know, it is, like I was saying where, where I used to hunt on my own and then where I used to guide and then I hunted a lot after, um, that operation shut down.
Um, unfortunately, um, but. The area in was so good. I knew there was always out there, there was never a question. And I knew, [00:23:00] I knew where they would be. I mean, it was sometimes a little bit of a process of elimination, but I knew where they would be. So that made it really easy. Um, and recent times, now there's a bunch of guys back there and there's an outfitter coming in from the other side.
And you know, as an example, this area I used to have to myself, and this past year, my son and I went back in there this year and we went in mistakenly mid month. Um, which again, that's what really attracts the crowd. Everybody associates September 15th to the peak of the rut. And in this small mountain bowl there was 12 other hunters back there we run into.
And so, you know, I just said, we're not doing this again. You know, and we pulled out of there. So we're going to a little bit different area. So, you know, I think the whole aspect of being, being mobile is really, really key. You, you gotta be, and you gotta have a couple different hunt plans in that in mind before you leave the house.
You, you don't want to, I mean, let's face it, for most guys it means taking off from work. [00:24:00] Um, you know, there's the expense side of it. Uh, you wanna do as much homework before you hit the trailhead that you have. Plan A, plan B, and and likely plan C so that, uh, you know, if things aren't going the well you want in your first option or two, you've got other options and you can just go to it rather than be in a situation where you say, where do we go now?
And you're wasting precious time outta your hunt. Yeah. I mean, and it clicks by fast and even the hunt like clicks by so fast. I think people really underestimate the fact that like, you know, you and I go on a 10 day hunt, man, it's over before you even know it. It's like it is, yeah. Spent eight of those days trying to find the elk, right.
Trying to get away from people and they got two days to hunt 'em. Yeah, it's tough and it happens quick for sure. Uh, do you think that it's, you know, calling is, I don't know, useless in Colorado these days? Or like No. Still good? No. Uh, you know, I, it's changed, but it's not use, it's not useless. I mean, my style of calling has [00:25:00] changed.
You know, I, one of the things, the first operation I worked at was, uh, an operation here called Winter Hook Outfitters. Um, I worked there for I guess nine years. Um, I was the head guide of maybe six of those years there. And, um. As part of that, I eventually, I taught the big game, big game guiding segment of their outfitter school.
And you know, with that, I got introduced to Cory Jacobson. And you know, Corey and I, I mean, to this day, I mean, Corey knows who I am and have a good, really good relationship with him. But the guy where I bring up his name is the guy that, um, who has helped me a lot is Dirk Durham. I met Dirk, you know, the Bugler through Corey.
And Dirk has helped me a lot with my calling. And then another guy by who lives here in Colorado by the name of Jermaine Hodge. And I picked those guys' brains, I talked to him about it. So, you know, in a nutshell, the way I think about calling is that, you know, I try to get to an area in the [00:26:00] morning, you know, where I think there's gonna be elk or I can hear elk, you know, and I, I, I don't call right away.
I sit there and I, I, I glass, I listen. If I don't see anything or hear anything, I might give a location bugle. Um, I might wait. Maybe location, bugle again, some cow calls. If nothing answers, I'm moving right to the next. I, I got a plan for where I'm going. But what I'm getting at with calling is I do use it to locate animals, but once I locate something, or even if I don't hear them call, but I see them, um, I'm not calling again until I feel like, um, really where I need to be, that I'm, I'm a hundred yards maximum.
You know, I'm trying to get inside that comfort zone. So the next time I call to him, you know, uh, then I've got a pretty good chance of getting a response. Um. And I don't scream my head off at 'em, you know, I mean, there could be times if you get into a heated discussion with a bull, but that doesn't really happen that much [00:27:00] anymore.
You know, it's more about, you know, making softer bugles, softer cow sounds, and especially soft calf sounds. Um, if you can get in close, they will answer. Now, a lot of times in today's day and age, they don't bugle all the way in. They'll answer you and they shut up and then they come in silent. That happens a lot, you know, I've blown some opportunities like that, you know, I mean, mainly, I mean, the one that comes to mind with my son, a couple years ago, I had this bull bugle in his head off at me.
I thought he was coming, and he shut up, and I waited like 30 minutes and I didn't hear nothing, didn't hear nothing. And I heard this bugle down the ridge, and I thought it was him. I went to go get my son to go after that bull, I took two steps and that bull took off. I was so disgusted. I said, damn, I know better than that.
You know? But sometimes you can get in the heat of the moment. It's easy to make mistakes, you know? But yeah, to answer your story, I think there's still merit in calling. It's just really more known about when to call, you know, not over calling. [00:28:00] Um, and you do have to get, you know, you don't have to be a world champion elk caller.
If you can make a good location bugle and you can make some good soft cow sounds and calf sounds, that's really what you need, you know, and then the rest is listening to the sounds that they make and trying to imitate 'em. Yeah. I, I a hundred percent agree with you that, you know, locating, maybe it works.
Uh, it, it's useful to have, it's for sure. I, it's not the end all be all. And I do think that there's a lot of people these days that get. They get, uh, impatient and impatient in the calling side where it's like, well, nothing answered. I just keep going. And, you know, oh, I thought there was okay, but they're not answering.
I'm just gonna keep going. And I think it actually increases when you get surrounded by other hunters because, and I've, I've, I've felt this, I've seen it, but it's like you get around other people and you're kind of rushed, right? You feel like you're not alone. They gotta hurry up. Right? Gotta find the elk and everyone's that way.
And [00:29:00] you see, even in rifle deer hunting, like everyone's running around with it, you know, it's like. They're trying to beat someone to somewhere they don't know where it's, and I think this is true in archery and calling for sure, it's like the busier it is, the more you have to slow down. And it's counterintuitive, but like you have to slow down.
You have to slow the calling sequences down. You have to slow you down. You have to wait longer. Like if elk aren't talking, the goal is not to speed up. And I'm a big fan of like move fast and break things when, when you're trying to find elk. But one, once you're in elk, man, you have to slow down. And I think the quieter they are, the more you have to slow down because they're.
They're questioning everything, right? Like they, they know like, right, they know there's people in the area. They're, you know, like you said, like even if you got a, a hot bull, a bull with a hot cow and he's bugling still a solid chance. He just absolutely shuts up. And, you know, he's, maybe he's still coming.
Maybe he didn't come. I don't know. But you still gotta slow play it. You can't force it. Yeah, you, you're exactly right. When to move, when, [00:30:00] when you should move, you know, and move quickly versus when you shouldn't. And you know, actually just taught a, uh, an upcoming seminar last week to a bunch of first responders.
That's some of the volunteer work I do here in Colorado to try to support the folks that look out for our communities. But one of the things I talked about is, you know, you see this in the west, a lot of times you see tracks. But if we don't have rain or wind tracks mean they were here, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're here now.
And you know, but you get into those areas where you see tracks, you see fresh droppings. You see wallows where the mud is wet on the trees from them using it. You're right. Even if they're not talking, those are the areas where you gotta really slow down and pay attention. 'cause they're there, they just may not be talking.
Right. And it doesn't mean they're not gonna come in. I, I think that's a, a big misconception. It's like, well, they're not talking right. I'm onto the next elk. And granted, you know, circa 2000 4, 5, 6, whatever, you could very much [00:31:00] pull the Corey Jacobson and if the elk wasn't talking, you were onto the next one.
But I just don't know that that's, depending on where you are, the unit, the, you know, the state, all these things, it, it doesn't exist as much. And so I think, you know, I think this to be very true in a place like Colorado. Totally armchair quarterbacking. 'cause I've never actually hunted elk in Colorado, but anywhere that's busy has a lot of pressure.
You, you can't rely on that. You can't just, uh, off to the next one. There's just not enough open spaces. No, there's not. There, there, there's really not, you know, I mean, and certainly, you know, probably the other thing that, that helps us nowadays that I do a lot of, um, to find out. 'cause you know, the, and you don't even have to spend a lot of money, you know, if you want to go, if you're on a budget.
But the quality of the optics that we have available to us now are just invaluable. You know? I mean, if I have trouble, um, you know, finding elk, you know, whether it be midday, a lot of times [00:32:00] midday or even an afternoon I'll in a whole afternoon to try to find a bunch of elk. Yeah. And maybe they're too far away from me to get to 'em that evening, but the next morning you can bank on.
I'm gonna be there. Yeah. You know, and I'm not, I'm not necessarily going in calling, you know, I'm going in there trying to get in the middle of 'em and then I might start calling, you know? Yeah. So do you look at, when you like, think about where to go, do you look at areas differently now? Um, you know, with like trying to stay away from people?
So there's the, the classic adage, are you trying to find elk or are you trying to get away from people? Um, you know, I'm gonna say it's a combination of both. I mean, it needs to be the right kind of country where they got cover, where they can get out of the warm weather during the middle part of the day where they got food, they got water.
But, you know, getting away from people is important. And like you said a few minutes ago, though it today, it's not necessarily that you have to go, um, that deep. It's just going where other people aren't, you know, and [00:33:00] trying to find those niches. 'cause the elk will hang there if they're, if they're not disturbed, if they got food, they got water and they're not getting hassled, they're gonna hang there.
Yeah. Lying there for several days. And if you play your cards right, you can get a crack at one of them. Yeah. Uh, I, I keep cutting you or interrupting, but I do want to hear some more elk stories. Do you have one that comes to mind? Um, memorable elk scenarios? You know, I would say, let's see. I guess probably, uh, and it has to start with the ones that I would would say about, like, there's probably along the lines of what we've been getting at was, I think it was in 20 19, 20 20, I was hunting with a couple of buddies of mine back in the area where I talked about, and of course now we're in the time where that area's getting a bunch of pressure and it was first rifle and I hunted the first four days and I didn't see one elk.
I saw some old sign, I didn't [00:34:00] see one elk. I saw plenty of old moose but no elk. And you know, it would've been really easy to quit. But I didn't. Um, the last day I said, today's the last day I gotta go. And I went back into this big mountain bowl where I've killed so many elk before and I was there right about when it's cracking light and I'm listening.
I don't hear nothing. I don't see nothing. And, um, I waited as long as I could let out a couple location bugles. And so I start my way towards the back of the bowl and started off and I maybe walked maybe 10 minutes, you know, but not walking, walking, walking 10 minutes, taking a few steps, stopping glassing ahead of me and just something made me look over my shoulder behind me in this bowl where I've seen on this, on this big avalanche shoot where I've always seen elk over the years.
And I look back there and lo and behold, there's eight cows in a really nice six point bowl. And I saw 'em and I immediately beat feet into the timber and it [00:35:00] probably took me about 30 minutes. Um, before I could get up, I had to really, you know, watch the cows with my binos, you know, figure out when I could, when I saw that, put their head down, take risk, move, take risk, move.
And I finally got in where I was within range. Um, and, uh, I ended up shooting. This really nice six point bull. Um, he was about 385 yards straight up, straight up this avalanche chute, right? And, um, I shot him and he, he took about three jumps and he stopped, you know, he, and he stopped like he wasn't himself, you know, and I figured that I hit him.
Um, and then the next thing you know, he, he's gone, you know? So I said, well, there's nobody around. I waited for a while and, uh, waited about an hour and I, I go up there looking around and of course, um, couldn't find any blood. Um, and I actually learned something from this, that one, one of the reasons I wanted to share this [00:36:00] story is that, um, so thank God there was maybe about a half inch of wet snow along some of the dark timber wear off that avalanche chute.
So I said, well, what I gotta do? And there was elk tracks everywhere, so it was kind of hard to tell for sure what was his, what wasn't, didn't find any blood in the area where I knew I shot at him. And, um. So I got up there and I walked that Timberline and I finally found just a pin drop of blood. I mean just a pin drop on the snow.
And I walked in there 50 yards and there he was piled up in a heap. And you know, the thing that I told myself about that was, um, you know, when you take these shots, and we know this, we think about this as part of what I like to call a mental checklist, when you get ready for a shot opportunity, whether that be archery or rifle, you know, in terms of the point of where you want to hit the animal versus where the exit wound is gonna come, because that's where the, the bulk of your blood trail can come from.
Of course, I hit [00:37:00] that animal low, but it exited high. Well, that blood C or the body cavity had to fill up with blood, which it really didn't even that much before he bled. And I think a lot of guys would've looked at that situation, probably went up there, walked around. And not done due diligence and walked away and left that big six point bull laying in the timber.
And I thank God that I, you know, I didn't give up. I, that's kind of one of the things I learned from my dad and my grandfather. If you shoot, you really gotta do your due diligence. Mm-hmm. But then I thought about that, I said, you know, I gotta make it make a mark in my mind to say, you know, that's one thing when you go looking for blood, you know, you may not find it right away, depending on the ex exit wound and, and where you hit 'em and everything else, and, you know, you, you just can't give up.
You gotta, you gotta really be thinking about the shot and what you saw and what you heard, what before, going after that animal. And don't give up until you've really done your due diligence. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I, uh, it reminds me [00:38:00] of my first deer I shot. And, uh, I'll never forget, I can still, and I close my eyes, can see that buck.
Jump. You know, we go down in this timber patch and my cousin's with me, and he's like, I don't know if you hit him. Like, we couldn't find any blood. We tracked that thing for at least a hundred yards to some very thick stuff. We never did see a, a single drop of blood. It was like a perfect shot. And, uh, we almost gave up looking for that thing.
My, my cousin was convinced I missed it, and to this day I can still see that buck kick, you know, the way he did. And, and I was like, I know I hit him. I know I hit him. But yeah, I mean, it happens for sure. And I, I think people probably do walk away too early and get frustrated. I think the other thing is, if I could just interject 2 cents on someone who's tracked a lot of blood trails, uh, you know, I do think that when you're new, you jump to gridding, you jump right to like, you know, the frustrating part.
You want to skip ahead and start doing circles or whatever it may be. And yeah, some of the best. Blood trails I've ever been on, [00:39:00] boiled down to more CSI forensic scientists than I did, you know, covering ground and looking for grids. And I think, man, you start gridding too early and, and you kinda lose faith and you get frustrated and you know, we, I I, I tend like, for what it's worth, most people know this, but like, for what it's worth, I think if you can, you know, go to wherever the last blood is and don't move a step until you find the next drop, um, you know, it may take you 20 minutes.
But I think if you didn't grow up doing this, there's probably a lot of people who don't know, they start to just grid pattern 'cause they don't find blood or they don't see it. And it's like, man, go back and we're not taking a step until we find the next clue. Um Right. Because this is where it is. And if you go one foot the wrong direction, you know, you're, you were never gonna find anything.
You sure. For hours and never go in the wrong way, you know? And the nice thing is, uh, I mean, I didn't grow up with this, but now we have it. Certainly I use it is on X is a great tool for tracking. Yeah, yeah. I mean, not only can you use that to mark where you found blood lasts, but. If [00:40:00] you do get into desperation mode, you can use it as a map to say, where have I went and where haven't I, based on where the direction you think that animal's going.
And you can really make sure that you've exhausted your opportunity if you use the tracking feature with it. Yeah, I mean, I've, this has happened to us, it happened last year. We, uh, you know, ran tracks and when you're, uh, you're in the forest, it's hard to see the trees, right? You're, you're running tracks.
You're like, man, why is he going uphill? Why is he going uphill? And, and then when you look back at that track on the map, you can be like, oh, maybe he's going over here. You know, and like it gives you a little bit of a clue and direction. But yeah, even last year that we tried a bowl seemed great, was very low.
Uh, didn't know that. And you know, we had made a hundred yards into that track job and we see basketball size globs of what we thought was long, just bubbles. Right, right. Surely he's dead. And actually this is probably a good learning session too, so it's like, shoot, this, this bull by the way, came in.
Stone silent [00:41:00] to calf calls, uh, mid-morning, right? Bull comes in stone, silent, makes shot, crashes off. We wait a while not knowing the shot, and we start tracking within a hundred yards. You know, we're getting a little bit of blood within a hundred yards. We see basketball size, long tissue, right? And he's going uphill.
So as Suzy went uphill, starts coughing up or something came out, I still don't know what it was, by the way. Anyway, long story short, we keep tracking thinking this bull's within a hundred yards. And of course it's getting less. It's getting less. And it's like, okay, clearly if he's made it this far, it's a one lung situation.
And in a one lung situation, he's probably not dead. If it's only been an hour and a half, right? So let's back out. Nothing good is gonna come from this. Like, let's back out, give it six hours. So we do the like six hour wait, right? And we keep going. That bull ended up, I forget the number. I could look on my phone, on my OnX, but call it over a mile.
Bull goes over a mile. Man, we were just looking for pen drops, pen drops, pen [00:42:00] drops. Finally, you know, we actually get into this area, get into some thick timber and we like bumped a bull. So bull stands up and I'm like trying to get eyes on to see if it's the right, it's the bull we shot, right? And like just trying to see arrow what happened.
Thinking it is for sure, or probably for sure the same bull. Well it turned out it wasn't, um, which was interesting in, in and of itself. But we watching this bull and I'm just. Catching glimpse of him through the bushes and whatnot. And I'm like, I don't think it's him. Like I think this bull's not hit. And I'd like, let's not shoot another bull here.
But like, all right, don't think that's the bull. And just, just the way he acted and the way he left. And sure enough, we went another a hundred yards and we found that bull laying, that bull was laying the bull we shot, found dead, was laying within 150 yards of where we stood this other bull up. I don't know if he like walked into a bedroom where another bull was, maybe he was kind of with that bull when they went up in there.
Either way. Like, man, we track that thing a long way. And you know, good, good [00:43:00] instinct of like good advice is like when you start, if you think you got one long, give it time because nothing good is gonna come from bumping a bull an hour after. Oh, you, you're a hundred percent right. You know, the same can be said with liver shots.
You know, I mean, they're gonna die, but they're not gonna die right away and Right. You know, that's, you really gotta pay attention. It's hard for guys, particularly if they don't have a lot of reps with killing elk or. Even killing white tails, you know? Um, you gotta really take in all the input about, you know, the, this whole shot opportunity and what you find and what you hear, and you gotta build that into your recovery plan.
And like you said, ideally, um, I like to see 'em pass where wherever they end up versus you go along and you kick 'em up out of their bed because that's when it really gets tough. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, bumping out is, no, it's never good. No, no it's not. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it works out, but generally speaking, it's gonna be less of a blood sugar than you had before.
Yeah. Right? [00:44:00] Yep. Absolutely. Never works out. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it takes a lot of reps, you know, one of the things like I always learned growing up was like, oh, wounded elk don't go uphill. And I don't know if I believe that anymore. Like I just, oh, they, they, they, I think they will to, it depends how bad they're hurt, obviously.
But, um. Just 'cause they go uphill doesn't mean they're not gonna die, but Right. You know, it depends on the circumstances and what's there and everything else, you know. Um, but patience is really key with recovery. You know, there's, I always tell people after I shoot, there's not a big rush to go over there unless there's circumstances.
Like I think that there's other hunters that are right there, or, you know, if I'm worried about rain or something, you know, or snow covering up the blood trail, well those circumstances can be different. But you know, overall, if all things being equal, I'm gonna wait at least unless I see that elk go down and right here 'em go down, you know?
'cause when they go down hard, obviously you hear it. Um, I'm waiting four, five minutes at a minimum before I go. [00:45:00] And if I think I hit back, like you were saying, if I think I hit back and it might be a liver shot, I'm probably gonna wait four hours before I even go looking, you know? So, yeah. And like everyone wants to see that first blood.
I've been there. I mean, we all do it. Yeah. Like you gotta see that first blood, which sometimes can tell you, I more often than not, like if I just don't know, I wait nowadays. 'cause like I've, I've gotten it wrong too many times. I've been, you know, seeing the first 10 yards of a blood trail and thinking it was glorious and Right.
It had been harder than I, like, you know, it's almost like I, I've inverted to, like, if I don't see a blood trail on the first 10 feet, I think it's probably gonna die soon. Uh, right. And if I, if I do, then I'm like really concerned, like, you know? Right. I've seen too many shoulder shots, too many like whatever and like great blood trails for the first a hundred yards and then just Absolutely.
They caught up. Yep. Seen that. Yeah. But I mean, elk are tough too, and like, uh, yeah, it's crazy. I, I, I think for the most part let 'em be for longer than you think. Unless [00:46:00] you know, like you said, unless there's some weird circumstance. But generally speaking, tend to weigh on. Absolutely. Yeah. What other advice do you have?
Um, for, for elk hunters? It could be archery, it could be rifle. Um, I know you do both. Um, thi this is both rifle and bow. Um, I, I think that rifle hunters are more guilty of this, but I'll talk about bow hunters too, is that there's, you know, the skills preparation for a shot opportunity is so important and I'm, you know, obviously there's the physical skill part of it that, you know, a lot of guys with a rifle and, and I can say some things about bow hunters too, where they'll go to the range, they rifle hunters shoot off a sandbags, just shoot with a shooting sticks and rifles shooting.
Really good. And I'm ready. Well, no, you're not ready, right? You know, you know your gun's in, but now you gotta go to shooting some real shooting positions. And by the way, forget about those shooting sticks. Shoot off your backpack. Shoot prone, shoot, leaning up against the tree. Shoot off your knees, [00:47:00] sitting with your back against the tree.
If I'm bow hunting, you know, I want to always shoot with my quiver on, I wanna shoot with my pack and my bino bion. Sometimes I want to guess the distance. 'cause maybe, you know, for closer in shots, I may not have time to range 'em. Um, you know, so that's the physical skills part of it. And then there's the mental skills part of it that, you know, particularly, uh, you know, when you get to a spot, whether you're on Stand for rifle or you're in a call setup for archery, you know, looking at assessing your shooting lanes, um, taking some readings with your range finder, you know, if it's archery, I'm thinking about where are my opportunities to draw, right?
If that bull's coming in and somebody's calling from me, I'm, I'm thinking about all that before the animal ever gets to me. Um, because they don't even need to know you're there. They, they just don't give you a lot of time. I mean, they might, you might say, well, he's gotta walk across that big park, but with those long legs, it does not take, you got seconds, [00:48:00] you don't have minutes.
You really need to prepare yourself. And then probably the last thing I'll say is that, you know, once you know you're gonna shoot that animal, you need to be thinking about your opening, um, where you're gonna shoot, you know, the spot on that animal, your aim point, you know, all those things. Forget about how he's gonna look over your fireplace and all that stuff, no matter how big he is, because that's when bull fever's gonna set in.
You know, so really rehearsing for that stuff is so important mentally and physically. And one of the pieces of advice I like to do is, you know, like, and I used to born and raised guys 'cause I think those guys have a lot of fun in their videos. But go watch those guys, particularly on archery. Go watch those guys, the guy in the setup about what he's doing when that the bull is coming and somebody's calling from him about, you know, the actions and the steps that they take to get ready for a shot.
And when they actually pick to draw, you can learn so much from watching somebody else. [00:49:00] Um. And then, then you just gotta prepare yourself for that. And, um, you know, it's, it's really key. The preparation is so key because if you don't do that, those shot opportunities come and go and you'll be kicking yourself afterwards.
'cause you might not even get a shot off, you know? Yeah. I had a guy just a couple years ago, first rifle, I called in this big, this big bull, and it's the same bull I know. I called in for my son during our tree. My son didn't kill him, unfortunately, he didn't listen to me and didn't stop at the tree where I told him to.
And he tried to sneak to the next tree and the bull stepped out. And um, and my son was taking one last step and they saw each other. It was over 20 yards. But this guy, I mean this bull was 50, 60 yards in front of him. And he is saying, I can see him. I can see him. I said, we'll shoot him and we're in this timber and this kind of, this rocky little hillside.
And he's futs. Instead of pulling up and just shooting that bull, he's futzing around with the shooting sticks, trying to get him balanced on the locks. And I'm saying. First thing you know, he says, now all I can see is the rear end. He never got a shot off. Oh, [00:50:00] this bull, this bull was 3 50, 360. It was a big bull, you know, and he was, you know, the good thing about it was, I, I, I didn't say anything, you know, I didn't say anything.
But the next day he said, um, he said, I guess I need to really practice, you know, infield positions. I say, yeah, you do. I said, shooting sticks are great and they have their place. But more, a lot of times, more times than not, particularly here in Colorado, um, unless you're doing long risk distance shooting and the animals don't know you there and they're feeding, you know, you don't have the time to play around with those things unless it's really wired in, in muscle memory, you know?
Yeah. So that's some of the, the big tips I can give. It's tough too because like it is, I preach at bats all the time. You gotta be in those scenarios to really understand. But there is like this balance of that sense of urgency. And even in the archery I do, you know, we watch if guys watch too much [00:51:00] and maybe this is like fading because in the old days you watch Primos and then you like get the primos videos, like everything happened a certain way.
Right. And you watch Born and Raised and you realize like, yeah, born and raised is like a little more western. They're uh, getting a shot when they can. Right, right. And I think that's the reality. That's the reality is like, I need to take this shot now 'cause there's probably not another one. And that comes from waiting.
Too long, too many times. And you learn like, man, yeah, I'm not gonna get a shot here. And like, you, you do this long enough and, and you start to like, try to force things. You, you know, you gotta get that last 1%. I might have to walk out and I might to step around this tree, I might have to like Right. Be aggressive at that last 1%.
And that comes from not getting the shot. Right. And I think, you know, that's a tough thing to teach people is like this sense of urgency. Every guide in the planet has a story, if not a handful of not a dozen stories of the client that like, just couldn't get the shot. And I promise you the guide could.
What is the difference, right? Well it's experience. Like, it's just [00:52:00] knowing like, ah, you gotta make it now. Like, how many times have you been on a, with a client and you're like, please shoot. Now you don't wanna rush 'em, but you're like, please shoot now, right now, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it's such a fine line.
Sometimes you're right because, you know, like, um, I could think about the biggest bull that I ever guided. Was in 2013 and I had a young guy and um, it was first day of third rifle season and I'm watching these bulls across the valley. There's three of them. And they're, they're, they were, I could tell they were all legal bulls.
Not, not big, they were average Colorado bulls. And next thing you know, out the corner of my eye, a hundred yards down the hill in the willows is this monster. And the bull is standing there in the willows and, and the kid pulls up like he's gonna shoot. I said, no, don't shoot now. 'cause number one, he was facing towards us.
He's in the willows, he doesn't have a clear shot. And I said, wait, he, you know, or you know, the sun's hitting on us, our cent's going uphill with, with the [00:53:00] thermals. I said, he's gonna step out and when he steps out broadside, I'll tell you when to shoot. And thank God he put his rifle down and he listened to me and that bull stepped out.
And um, he shot him. I mean, the bull went maybe 25 yards. This bull score scored 3 54, which is. You know, over the counter, Colorado public land bull is a big bull. Yeah. Um, and he was, of course he was ecstatic. But you know, if I had not been there to coach him through that, you know, that's where a lot of guys would've lost their cool and shot at the wrong time.
So it's what I'm getting at is there's that fine balance that you don't have a lot of time, but don't jump the gun either and take a shot you shouldn't take, because those things can even eat at you more, particularly if it's a bad hit and you don't get 'em. Yeah. You know, it could be guys with a frontal shot.
If you're gonna take a frontal shot, please make sure that you, first of all, make sure that you're confident you could put that arrow where it needs to be. But also that the angle of that shot that you know it's straight on and that animal's on a level playing field with [00:54:00] you, it's not up the hill. Right.
You don't have any, or down the hill, you don't have any chance of, of that arrow going through and penetrating vitals if there's a steep angle one way or the other, you know? So it's a lot of that is preparing yourself for that and thinking that through, and trying to do it as much as you can in advance so that when the time happens, all you gotta do is wait and execute versus trying to think through all that stuff.
And then you either do end up doing the wrong thing, whether that be taking a shot before you should Yeah. Or not getting shot off at all. There's, um, I grew up watching Wayne Carlton and there's an old Wayne Carlton video and he's, he's on Roosevelt's, uh, he's back where I grew up. And, um, he talks a lot about this bull standing there, like 15 yards or whatever.
He goes, he says something to the, I'm gonna butcher the quote, but like, to something to the effect of, you know, sometimes if you give these bulls a chance, they'll give you a shot. And the bulls, you know, you can tell the bulls looking for him. He doesn't know, you know, and he is like, and he ends up. Turn in and he turns and kind [00:55:00] of gives him that broadside shot.
Yeah. And I, that stuck with me from a very young age to know like, when can, when is that bull gonna give you the shot? It's the classic coyote. Right. And you know, hunters will tell you like, oh, coyote's always gonna stop and look up one more time. And if you're ready you can pull a shot off. Lot of times Elk will do that, but you have to be able to read the room.
Right. And so I love curiosity from an elk hunting perspective, and I love when a bull can't find me or is looking for me, because he'll almost always give you that one more turn. Right? But if you play the aggressive game and like that bull comes in hot and he doesn't see anything, there's a much faster shot clock, right?
Like that bull comes in and if the room is like. The things are not what they're supposed to be. You know, he, yeah. He won't give you that. He's gonna turn and burn every time. Right. That's really tough to teach is like, Hey, this Elk's gonna turn and burn. As soon as he doesn't see what he is. Like this elk is gonna come in and he's gonna, he's gonna give you [00:56:00] three different angles and he is gonna turn broadside.
That's right. Really tough to teach, but I mean, if, maybe watch videos. Watch videos and read the room on those things, but like, you have to practice. Yeah. I, I agree. And then for rifle hunters, of course, the one thing that even that seems to always work is that unless they smell you, it's different. Right?
Right. When they smell you, it gets game over. But if they're suspicious, they come in or you know, for whatever reason, you know, they might catch you even move or whatever. But if you can execute a cal call and be ready, they'll always stop once and look always, you know, they'll stop and look over their shoulder and you get that quartering away shot.
Yeah, you just gotta be ready, right? You gotta be ready to, you gotta almost be on him and, and, and be ready, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's the same as a coyote, right? Like, you know, a coyote's running away. Get on him. And like, I remember my dad telling him, get on him, get on him. He is gonna stop. And then like, yeah, right as you cross that hill, like you, you got one or two seconds before he's gonna stop and look one more time.
But most people are watching outside of the [00:57:00] scope. The coyote runs up the hill and he stops and then you try to get on him and by the time you get on him, he's gone. Right. And so it's like that elk, you almost have to anticipate like he's gonna stop one more time. Yep. And that's, that's one thing I will say that has translated for me if I talk about rifle hunting, um, for a minute different than, um, not with bow hunting obviously, but from growing up, shooting white tails in tight windows through tight timber, I learned to get the gun up in advance and let 'em walk in.
And I like to say, let 'em walk in and take their picture. And it's the same thing with elk hunting, you know? Um, you could be on that bull with your scope, right? And then maybe you don't have the right angle or you don't have a clear shot. But like you said, you're not looking from outside your scope, you're looking through your scope.
Mm-hmm. In fact, you've got it a little bit in front. And when he comes in to where you need him to be, you know, it just, it just gotta happen. Right? Yeah. And they don't give you a lot of time. They don't, but that part of whitetail hunting does translate. Yeah, man, that's old school, like hunting elk and the timber, uh, and just, you know, pulling the [00:58:00] scope.
You're like, here's the lane and you, you gotta have the cross airs on the lane. And when that elk crosses it, like you're pulling the trigger. You, you do, you know, probably one of the things, and everybody's got, I mean the new rage of course now is um, these super long rage scopes. The dial up, the dial up aspect of 'em and everything.
But I'm old school in that. I mean, my shooting distance, I've killed several elk out to four 30 I think is the, is the furthest they've all been one shot kills. 'cause I know my rifle and I do my homework at the range, but. For me for hunting, I like a two and a half to 10 power scope. Um, I mean, number one, it fits in a rifle scabbard.
If I am riding on horseback, where those big scopes, a lot of times you need a special scab or just to get 'em on a horse or mule. But you know, when I'm still hunting myself and when I'm on the move, you know, or if I, if I'm tracking a wounded animal, even I got my scope down on two and a half power because I can shoot really quick like that, you know, really quick.
And if I need the 10 power, I got it. But I like having [00:59:00] that ability to crank that scope down, you know, it enables me to shoot a lot quicker. Do you spend much time still hunting the timber for elk? I do, sometimes not, not in the bedding areas, but not in the bedding areas. I mean, I might do that the last day of my hunt if I really get in a pinch.
Um, and most of the time when I do do that, it's not when they're bedded, it's when it is like after a fresh snow. Mm-hmm. And I know, I know that they're up feeding. 'cause if they're up feeding, you got a chance. If they're bedded, you got zero chance. Yeah. They see every time. Unless you can get above 'em and glass 'em, you know, but if they're up on their feet, a lot of times I, man, I've walked right up on 'em, man, in fresh snow and, you know, and there they are.
And I've shut, I've shut some elk, like 35 yards that way in snow, you know, but, you know, that's, that's kind of coming from hunting white tails back east. And you know, it's gotta be the right circumstances, you know? Yeah. What I mean, like right circumstances, like what's, what's the optimal time of day? And obviously [01:00:00] fresh snow would be key.
Um, but like, what's, what's the right circumstance look like to be still hunting the timber? Um, I would say like when you start getting into, uh, later in the morning right before they bed. Mm. You know where they're still and you know, if you can hear 'em talking or something. Even, you know, when you're trying to slip in and, you know, I'm not afraid to use my glasses, my binoculars when I'm going through the timber.
'cause I'm not looking for all elk, obviously. I'm looking just for, for movement and pieces of animals. Um, but it's before, before that catching 'em where they're going from feeding into the bedding areas. But, you know, you need to be quiet walking and you need to be, you know, you're really not walking, you know, I mean, you're, you're taking maybe one step every 10 minutes, you know, being really careful, you know.
And obviously if, if there's a bunch of animals, the more animals there is, the harder there is to do so, or harder it is to do. But are you like, it's your ideal. I I'm fascinated by still hunting the timber and I grew up kind of doing it. My dad's what my, my dad did killed a lot of elk that way. Um, but, [01:01:00] uh, are you glassing.
At first light and and dark, are you just hunting areas that maybe you can't even glass? Because in my mind, if I can hunt Colorado, in my mind, like anything you can glass is, I don't know, not not useless, but it's definitely not my priority. And I'm like very interested in like, hey, how do we find areas where, no, like first of all, everyone right now, you know, you can say there's an OnX problem where everyone kind of sees the same thing and goes to the same places.
But for the most part, I also think that that creates places or habitats where everyone's hunting, where they can glass a lot. Right, right. For, for, for certain reasons, right? Like it works. There's, if you take a unit where it's like, man, you gotta, the only way to hunt this entire unit, there's no vantage point that's all like mediocre timber.
I, you got a pretty good opportunity there. No one else is gonna be still on that timber for miles on end. Right? So like, I don't know, maybe there's an opportunity, you know, you know, for me, I, I'd say where, where I get really excited about [01:02:00] that is, is that, um. If we get, you know, you get stormy weather the afternoon and the evening, and then it snows overnight.
The next morning I'm out and, and I'm looking for fresh tracks. And, you know, when I pick up a fresh track, and particularly there's a, I know that there's a, a bull within 'em, or it's a bull track, you know, I'm following that track, you know, and I'm being really careful. I'm being really careful of the wind.
I'm using my binos to look ahead and then the real key is I'm, look, I'm looking at the terrain, you know, when I can get my favorite is where you can get to that terrain. Maybe you got cover or you got a little bit of uphill and then it kind of drops off. Mm-hmm. Catch 'em in those little openings that's.
That's where you can get 'em, you know? So it's really using those factors, you know, and assessing how they're moving and everything. You know, it's not hard to tell if they're, if they're spooked, it's not hard to tell. They're hustling along. They're just kind of walking in middle along, and you can see that they're feeding, you know, I'm going real slow [01:03:00] and I'm watching the tracks.
I'm looking ahead, and then I'm using the terrain to try to figure out where I might be able to get the jump on one. And that's worked for me quite a bit over the years. So, see, that's a dying art. I don't think there's a lot of people out there that have that scale. That's a different skillset than what currently exists in the, in the elk cutting world.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I hear you well. Oh, man. Well, I appreciate it. Thanks, Bob, for coming on. Um, yeah, any, any way we can help you or any ask of the audience? Um, no, I just, I, uh, enjoy talking about this stuff. I'm on Instagram. Bob T 7 56. Uh, always willing to try to help other people or talk about stuff. You know, feel free to hit me up.
Um, you know, wherever the question be could be about elk hunting, how to select a good outfit or yeah, that kind of stuff. So, you know, I eat, sleep and drink this stuff in the off season. It gives, you know, and now that I'm retired, except for the little bit of guiding I do and I do, I still guide quite a bit of fly fishing.
Um, you know, [01:04:00] but, uh, it gives me something to do in the off season. And, you know, probably the only negative about it is, you know, here it is, it's only March and I did an El clinic seminar last week. I'm doing this this week, this weekend I'm helping teach a packing clinic. And then in early April I'm doing an alcohol seminar for first responders that all this stuff is getting me all wound up in September, still a few months away.
But, um, no, I really enjoy it and it was a pleasure, Cody. Yeah. Well thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. Uh, yeah, I do podcasts and I get sometimes like this one, I get all excited now I wanna go like get an over the counter Colorado elk tag and like start playing it, you know? So yeah, I did hunt up in Montana.
That's where you are, right? Yeah, yeah. Years ago I hunted up in Montana. This is when I first moved to Colorado up in Beaverhead National Forest. And man, I ran into a bunch of elk there and unfortunately I was, at that time I was in my mid thirties and man, I could go, you know, and I was talking with a couple guys that were the age of my dad and they recruited me to go, 'cause they said we need somebody like you because you know, you can [01:05:00] pack elk and you cut the split firewood.
And I did all that. But unfortunately the night before the season opened, we got about three foot of snow and um, I located this huge group elk and um, they wanted to go 'cause they just, they couldn't get to 'em through all the snow. And I understood, but it was, it was really hard for me at that time 'cause I was still gungho to, to have to leave that.
But that was my one experience out in Montana. Need to. Need to get back up there. Also need to hunt Wyoming too. I did Wyoming last year. I've done it a couple times. And Wyoming's, man, it's a cool place. Um, I need to do Colorado. Of all the things, like, I feel like that's the one I, you know, probably need a cash points here pretty soon and, and just do a Colorado hunt.
But we'll see one of these days. Yeah. Well, sounds good. Keep in touch me. We might have to do that. So. All righty, well appreciate it Bob. Thanks so much. Okay. Have a good one, Cody. See ya. Yep. Bye.
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