The October Advantage: Big Bulls, Empty Mountains, and a 58-Inch Giant, Talking Bulls with Gibson Butler

Season #1 May 08, 2026

You already know Montana gets talked about a lot in Western elk hunting circles — but are hunters actually hunting it right? This week, Cody sits down with Gibson Butler, a Montana-bred elk hunter who's put in the time, miles, and boot leather to figure out what it really takes to tag a mature bull on a general tag in the Treasure State.

Gibson breaks down his 2024 season in full detail — from the early September frustrations of finding a stud seven by eight and losing him, to going deep into a hard, committing piece of country in October and coming out the other side with a 58-inch main beam giant. This is a real, honest account of what a serious DIY public land elk hunt looks like — the setbacks, the patience, the weather, and the moment it all comes together.

Beyond the story, Cody and Gibson get into the strategy that makes or breaks general unit Montana hunts: why most non-resident hunters funnel into the same mountain ranges, how private land dynamics are shifting, why calling with a Hoochie Mama in Eastern Montana might be the worst thing you can do, and the underrated value of hunting October when everybody else has gone home.
If you've been thinking about Montana, applying for points, or trying to level up your open-country elk game, this episode is going to hit different. Gibson's a student of the craft, and the insights he drops on big bull behavior, elk density versus hunter density, and hunting elk like mule deer are the kind of stuff you don't find on YouTube.

SPONSORS

This episode is proudly brought to you by two brands that Cody trusts in the field season after season:

Tricer Tripods
Fast, light, and simple — that's the Tricer way. From top-of-the-line tripods and bino mounts to pan heads, truck mounts, and their new bipod lineup, Tricer makes glass-and-glass accessories for hunters who take their optics seriously. Cody's been running the Tricer bipod hard and putting critters down with it. If you want to upgrade your glassing system, Tricer is the move.
Website: tricer.com | Use code TRO at checkout for your discount.

Stone Glacier
Stone Glacier builds hardcore mountain hunting gear for the serious backcountry hunter. Cody's Sky Archer 6400 pack has logged miles in Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, and Montana — equally at home on a 10-day alpine backpack hunt as it is on a day hunt off the side-by-side. Minimalist, lightweight, and built to last, Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of gear designed around the demands of mountain hunting.

Website: stoneglacier.com | Use code TRO at checkout for your discount.

TIMESTAMP CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro & Sponsor Read — Tricer and Stone Glacier ads.
2:30 The General Tag Situation — Gibson reveals he drew a Montana general tag — and Cody breaks down where general Montana archery fits in the Western draw tag hierarchy.
7:00 Public/Private Dynamics in Montana — How ranch ownership changes are shifting elk movement and sanctuary availability across the state.
12:00 Non-Residents and the Mountain Range Problem — Why 90% of out-of-state hunters funnel into the same few ranges and how to think differently about unit selection.
17:30 Gibson's 2024 Season — September Struggles — Four weekends of finding big bulls and losing them, including a near-miss on a giant symmetrical seven.
24:00 Going Deep in October — Gibson commits to a hard-access piece of country with one Peak Refuel and no water — and finds nearly 100 elk.
31:00 Watching the Herd for Two Days — Why Gibson didn't attempt a stalk immediately — broken six, a stud seven, swirling winds, and a giant donut of cows.
37:00 The Kill Shot — Rain sideways, foggy binos, Pink Panther stalking through satellites, and a 70-yard arrow eight inches back. Still double-lunged.
43:00 Big Bull Behavior — When to Strike — October elk movement, the 'cranky grandpa' bull theory, nomadic giants, and why routine bulls get killed.
50:00 The Case for October — Why Cody and Gibson love hunting the back half of the archery season — fewer people, cooler temps, and more active bulls.
55:00 What Most Hunters Get Wrong — The Hoochie Mama problem in Eastern Montana, elk density vs. hunter density, and why 'going deep' doesn't always mean going alone.
1:02:00 Covering Ground — The Eastern Montana Way — Using online research, rapid-fire glassing points, and moving smart to find elk in low-density country.
1:07:00 Calling vs. Glassing — An Honest Take — The evolution from stress-bugling everything to hunting elk like deer, and where calling still fits.
1:10:00 Wrap-Up & Outro — Links to Gibson's blog on elkhunt201.com, plus the free hunt planner resource.

THREE KEY TAKEAWAYS

1. Most Hunters Are Competing for the Same Ground
The natural way hunters research general Montana tags — looking at population numbers, picking obvious mountain ranges, following social media threads — funnels the majority of non-residents into a handful of the same units. The elk in those areas either end up on private land or go quiet from pressure. The guys killing mature bulls consistently are actively avoiding the herd mentality and looking for the anomaly: ground that doesn't show up in 15 Rock Slide threads, offshoots of established herds expanding into new territory, and country that doesn't look like a classic elk postcard.

2. Big Bulls Don't Get Old by Being Smart — They Get Old by Being Sporadic
One of the most honest and applicable insights of the episode: mature bulls aren't necessarily intelligent, they're unpredictable. The same wandering, nomadic behavior that keeps a bull alive for years is also what occasionally gets him killed — walking across the wrong piece of ground at the wrong time. If you're hunting for age class, you have to be ready to recognize and capitalize on those brief windows of vulnerability, like weather events, rut chaos, or the moment a bull is locked down and distracted by a hot cow. Patience and preparation matter more than calling or aggressive play.

3. Elk Density and Hunting Opportunity Are Not the Same Thing
More elk does not mean more at-bats — it means more hunters, which means more pressure, which means elk that stop bugling, leave timber late, and camp on private. The sweet spot for a serious DIY hunter is finding unmolested elk that still act like elk. That often means lower density areas where you have to cover serious ground to find them, but when you do, you're dealing with animals behaving naturally. Whether it's a glassable open-country unit or a commitment-heavy piece of backcountry, the goal is always the same: find elk that haven't been messed with.

Episode Transcript

EHP_EP_GibsonButler
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[00:00:00] This is the Elk Hunt Podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody Rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content.

This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light, and simple, from amazing tripods to bino mounts, pan heads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light, and simple. I love their gear. And if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer.

Head over to the website tricer.com. They make great products, and it's just a great company. Awesome dudes. Been using the heck out of the bipod. Uh, killed a lot of critters with it. Head over to the, uh, the website, use the code T-R-O, and [00:01:00] you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier.

And tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The Sky Archer 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, and I love the thing. It's, it's ... You know, whether it's a 10-day backpack hunt or you're day hunting from the side-by-side, that's what I love about the Stone Glacier.

It's minimalist. It's lightweight. You can use it day hunting, or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Uh, great product. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglacier.com. Use the code T-R-O. You'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and, uh, get yourself some great gear.

All right, dude. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Like, yeah. Um, you drew a tag. I did draw a tag. So you're excited for elk hunting? Yeah. Well, it's- I haven't, I haven't told anyone. I only drew the [00:02:00] general tag this year. So that's news to everyone. I don't know if it's really news, but- Poor guy.

Yeah. I don't know. Do you feel like ... Where do you put Montana in general? Like, in- As far as like how good- Like across the West? Yeah, just like as far as like ... 'Cause my thing would be like there's a lot of draw tags in Montana that are, in my mind, some of the best draws you can get in the whole country.

For sure. And dudes are like, "Oh, I drew a general tag." I'm like, "Man, that's a tough hunt." Like, it just, broadly speaking, there's a lot of variations of it, but I feel like general Montana archery, dif- difficult hunt. Yeah, I think, like the generals, especially if you're a non-resident, I think the generals are a tough hunt.

And I think Montana's kind of a state that if you wanna hunt it a lot, like if you wanna- If you wanna have Montana be one of the states that's in your rotation, you kinda have to dedicate yourself to it. Right. Um, that said, I think there's a 350 bull in just about every general unit in [00:03:00] the state. That is true.

But we have a five-week rifle season. Yeah. Makes it tough for them to get big. But the way our public/private lays out, there are places where those bulls get sanctuary and can get to older age classes. And we, I mean, there's just a ton of private. Yeah. There's a lot of bulls on private. Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, there's a lot of general stuff where big, or bulls get big on big private ranches.

Mm-hmm. You know what's interesting is too is, like, I th- I feel like it's, uh ... And I think this is true in some of the draw stuff too, where it's like ranch, uh, not ranchers. Uh, people are buying up big ranches and- Mm ... we both know a lot of ranches that either are getting hunted or not getting hunted, and keeping tabs on that is, like, some of the secret sauce.

'Cause, like, all of a sudden you'll have a ranch not being hunted and it, like, becomes a sanctuary. Mm-hmm. And then you find out, oh, it's getting hunted, like some outfitters got it this year. Yeah. But, like, I feel like that [00:04:00] changes the dynamic a little bit. That definitely changes how they move across the public/private boundary.

Yeah. For sure. Um, like, I think that especially you see this, like, a lot out east. Like, if you see, like, there's an alfalfa pivot a half mile off the road and there's elk on it every night, and there's like a couple chunks of BLM around it, the elk know right where that fence line is. Like, like that kind of public/private game is just not really productive, but there's ways around it.

Like, there's other stuff that you can do. Most of that stuff that's, like, real close to the road that everybody knows about, you can, I think you can pretty much write off. Like, maybe check it as you're driving by, but for the most part, there's gonna be four or five guys sitting on the fence line with cow elk decoys and a Hoochie Mama.

Yeah. It's not really a game you wanna play. I do feel like there's a lot of places in Montana where you have, like, pivots or whatever, and bulls are [00:05:00] going way farther than people think. Mm-hmm. And they're like, I mean, Colorado shows it, but it's like they're going three, four, five miles. Mm-hmm. And I think people, like, a lot of noobs will be like, "Oh, they're just gonna go over here to bed."

And, like, Montana elk specifically tend to go very far to bed. Especially out east. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, out here, like, in some of the more, like, western part of the state, more the generals, like, if they're feeding on an alfalfa pivot right at the base of the mountain, they're probably not going that far up the mountain to bed, at least in my experience.

But yeah, I mean, out east, I don't think it's uncommon for them to go, like, anywhere from five to 10 miles That's so great ... like in a day. Yeah. So I got general, I don't know what my plan is yet. Yeah. We were talking about that. Um, you know, go steep and deep, go back to the wilderness- Yeah ... go, I don't know.

We'll see. Um- Yeah ... maybe just buy a, a landowner tag somewhere. Yeah. [00:06:00] There's a lot of good hunts on the generals too. There is. It's just tough to- There is ... find your little big one. Yeah, and I think that's kind of, I mean, like Montana is a great place. You can get a ton of hunting. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, you look at most states, like you're, most guys are stoked to kill a 300, 315 inch bull.

Yeah. Like, you take, a way better in Colorado still. Better than most in- That's true ... Oregon still. You know, New Mexico maybe would be like the, I don't know, the, the caveat to that is like- Yeah ... you go to New Mexico, pretty sweet hunt, so I don't know. Montana's still good. I don't know. I, I, I've had a lot of people message me, and I do feel like Montana, or non-residents in Montana get hung up on like the same two or three areas, and it's like the same- Yeah

ma- uh, ranges and same like, it's like everyone's kind of going to those places. Yeah. I don't know, it's just like Montana is funny because it's, you kind of select these like s- mountain ranges, right? Mm-hmm. And everyone kind of wants like, you look at a map and everyone selects this mountain range or this mountain range, and, um, [00:07:00] as I been e-scouting the last couple weeks, it's like- Mm-hmm

I don't want to think about mountain ranges. I want to think about it differently or like trying to find stuff that isn't a mountain range, right? Yeah. Just to get away from people, 'cause I think 99% of the battle in any general hunt is how do you get away from people. That's it. For sure. Yeah, I had a buddy, um, texted me like last week when draws came out, and I asked how he did and told him I drew and asked, asked what he did, 'cause he was thinking about hunting out east and he'd asked me about a couple tags and, um, said he drew, and I was like, "Oh, what'd you end up putting in for?"

And he told me, and I was like, "Oh, dude." "That's the one that you shouldn't have done." Yeah. And, like, he was like, "Oh, why?" And I was like, "I don't know. You, like, you want a place that doesn't have 15 rock slide threads about it, you know?" Right. Like- ... yeah, like, like you said, there's just like these pockets that seem to [00:08:00] attract, I'd say probably 90% of the non-residents.

Right. Like- Yeah, I feel the same way ... like they all, it seems like they're all kind of looking for the same thing, so like their cousin hunted there two years ago and killed a bull, and they're going there just based on that information. But- Right ... I don't think there's a ton of guys that are, like, looking for the anomaly.

Well, the, you know, the interesting thing about Montana is like, take the general for example, like a lot of states you pick a unit and it kind of boils it down, so you're like, yeah, I don't know, unit 63, and if you draw unit 63, you start, like, kind of like figuring that out, right? On the general, you have so many units and so much ground that it's like, it's hard to boil it down, so you tend to boil it down by mountain range.

Yeah. And then like- Yeah ... just naturally, and then so then you like start to pick that apart, and then like a lot of guys will look at the numbers and then, you know, uh, just looking at population numbers generally speaking. Yeah. So it's like, but there, there's a strong correlation [00:09:00] between elk population numbers and hunter population numbers.

Yeah. So like, it's just like you, you kind of fall into this, I think all, most hunters fall into the same thread of like process of selection for a unit- For sure ... and then it like kind of all funnels into the same places, so. Yeah, and then- I try to like always think outside of the box. Yeah, and then the elk in those units either end up on private or- Right

so scared that they won't bugle and- Right ... leave the timber in the daylight. So it's like, you're kind of- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so not general, uh- Not general ... not general, Keith. Dude, let's, uh, I wanna hear the story from your bull last year. Okay. Stud bull. Yeah. Yeah, he's a good one. Um, so September honestly was pretty tough.

Uh, I was only hunting weekends. Um, I'd planned on taking my big time off from like October 2 to the end of the season. Um, but I was getting out there either Thursday evening [00:10:00] or Friday evening every week, and it was super frustrating. I kept like finding a really good bull or two on like the evening that I'd arrive, and then going, "Sweet, he's gonna be dead by Sunday," and then losing him Saturday and not being able to find him.

Yeah. Like, that happened four weekends in a row, and, uh, I got to October and went out there and- Did you have any close calls in September? Uh, yes, I did. Um, I got into like within 150 of probably the biggest bull I saw all season. Um, giant, like perfectly beautifully symmetrical seven. Like, I only saw him for 30 or 40 seconds up close, but like he was giant, giant.

Um, and [00:11:00] actually, yeah, I think I spent another two days trying to find him and never turned him up again. But I was probably too aggressive on that one. Um, I went into this spot and I honestly wasn't really expecting to find elk in there, but I felt like I kind of just had to cross it off the list. I had some cameras in there and had a couple could- good bulls on camera, but I had never seen cows in there.

There was like elk sign, but it was kind of spotty, and, uh, I parked the truck and- hike out on this vantage and start glassing and the bull bugle's like right below me and I'm like oh god my wind's bad like this isn't good so I kind of like back up and it was such hard country to glass because there wasn't like a big elevation point that you could go in and like see into these different coolies and I just kind of um sat back and listened and I got the wind better and every time one would bugle which wasn't [00:12:00] very often I would cover like 50 yards or so um and ended up getting pretty close and I in hindsight like there was nobody else in there I don't think anybody else was hunting them I probably should have just sat on them but I just like kept pushing ended up bumping a group of cows they didn't know what I was it was like a soft bump but I think it was enough for them to move and yeah I got within like 150 and that bull came out of the temper and I was like holy shit like that's yeah um and then That's the pros and cons of not knowing what you're chasing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I never had that bull on camera. I had a couple other good ones though. But hopefully I can catch up with him next year. And then, yeah, October rolls around. I was hunting this little piece public that I had seen a big seven by [00:13:00] eight on, just like barely working the edge of this public and hunted it for two days.

And it was just like raghorns running around being stupid and never saw him again. And I was like, okay, it's not happening over here. I need to change something up. And there was a spot that I hadn't gone into all season, mostly because it was a real commitment to go in there. Like you kind of have to burn a day in, a day out.

And I had to pack water and it was just a pain and not something I could do in two or three days and hunt effectively. So I loaded up the pack and went in there and it was a rough fest. Like it was wild. Like there was probably close to 100 total in there. Lots of bulls. There was [00:14:00] probably two or three bulls in there that I would have shot.

There was one six that was 350 plus, but he had snapped off his left main beam like right at the base. And then there was another six that was really good. And then there was this seven and it was kind of like that big six and the seven that were the two The two big dogs in the group, and they each had, like, 30 or so cows.

Um, so I watched them, didn't even go on a stalk for two days, just watched them. Um- Okay ... w- wind was pretty bad, and where they were bedding was, like, in the wide open on top of a ridge, swirling wind, like bull in the middle, and then just, like, a giant donut of cows all around them. Mm. And, like, raghorn satellites all over the place.

And I [00:15:00] mean, I'm, I'm a fan of being aggressive, but that was like- ... it was like this is just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. Um, and then- So, like, every day are you watching this bull, and you're like, "Hey, go bed in a good spot"? Yeah. Almost like a mule deer hunt, like where- Yeah, or just, like, a change in weather or something.

But he had so many cows, and there were so many satellites, I was like, "I just don't think I can do it." Um, and then so it was my third or fourth day in there, um, there was weather coming, and I was like, I think I had one Peak Refuel left and, like, some snacks. And I was out of water. But I knew it was gonna rain that night, so I was like, "Okay, I can collect some water on my tent, and, like, tomorrow morning I know I'm gonna have a good wind, I know I'm gonna have weather.

I'm either gonna kill that seven or I'm gonna, like, blow the entire herd to the next county and go somewhere else." Right. So, uh, woke up, um, [00:16:00] early the next morning. I wanted to be, like, on him in the dark. I had a pretty good idea of where he'd be. Um, so I get down within striking distance, like, probably quarter mile or so, and it's rain- Are they freaking out?

Yeah. Yeah, they're going nuts. It's, like, raining sideways. Um- Are you seeing anything or you just kinda got close? It's so foggy that, like, I can see elk with the naked eye, but, like, to see him through my bi- like, I was cleaning my binos. Like, I could see for three or four seconds, and then I had to- Oh ... like, wipe my lenses.

Yeah. And, like, I, I thought at this point I could recognize his bugle, and there was two different groups, and I couldn't tell which one was that broken six and which one was the seven. And at one point I almost, like, went a mile and a half in the other direction because I thought the broken six was him, but he bugled again.

I was like, "God, that really sounds like him." And so I stayed put, and it finally [00:17:00] cleared enough that I could see him. I was like, "Okay, sweet. That's him." And they start feeding up, going to bed, and they kinda, like, staged up, um- And the cows bedded down, like not in a place that they would usually bed. It was just kind of a chaotic morning and, um, they all laid down in this one spot and I'm up on this ridge above them.

And wind's still good. I'm like, "I think I can slip down this coulee." And I like measured on OnX, like from this fence, not like a property line fence, but just a pasture fence, that from there to the edge of the coulee was like 150 yards and they were like closer to the coulee than they were that fence.

So I was like, "Okay, I think if I can get to the edge of there, I'll have a shot." And so I started sneaking around, bumped two raghorns at like 10 yards, scared the, scared the shit out of me. I was like, "Oh God, don't run towards the herd." And they like, thankfully they ran the [00:18:00] other direction, um, and didn't, didn't draw too much attention.

And I like slipped down into this coulee and I'm like sneaking around like Pink Panther style, like weaving through satellites and spikes. Yeah. I would like come across a corner and like see a cow feeding out and like take the ta- same two steps backwards. Finally got up to this edge and he was on a hot cow and, uh, just ranged him real quick at 70 and then he ran off to chase off a satellite and that cow didn't move.

And I was like, "Okay." And I ranged him again. He was at 95. I was like, "No, I'm not gonna shoot him at 95." And then he came right back to the cow and just drew and stuck him. Um, and I was like, I was like shaking a little bit on the shot, but I was like shaking in an acceptable range, like, you know? Like pretty much like heart top, a lung shaking.

And my arrow was like eight inches back. It still double lunged [00:19:00] him, but I was like, "God, that was weird." And like sure enough, I got home and shot my bow at 70 yards and I was like eight inches right. Wow. So I must have taken a digger, like whatever, having my bow on my pack or something, bumped my sight.

Total. Yeah. So you slipped in, put an arrow through him. Mm-hmm. Are you, uh, cloud nine or like, I mean like- Yeah. Did you think- Yeah ... this was crazy? I mean like, 'cause I, like we, like we were just talking about- Yeah, yeah ... with that bull and I was like, "Dude, that thing's a stud." Even when you text me, uh, like right afterwards, I was like, "Damn," like, and then we started going through the numbers.

Yeah. And I was like, "Man, that thing is surprising." The 58-inch main beams- Yeah ... is like really- Yeah. Yeah. Makes that bull deceiving. Yeah. Like when I was looking at him through the spotter, I like, I figured his main beams were like 52, 53. Right. Um, but yeah, once I saw him on the ground and I saw his right main beam, I was like, "Whoa."

He's nice. Thing's long. Um- Yeah. Then got him [00:20:00] home and put the tape on him, and I was like, "Holy smokes, that's- What is nice- That's a big bean ... like what have you learned about big bull behavior? Like when to strike, when not to?

Uh, there's a lot of variables to it. Like if you've got a big bull and you know he's gonna get pressured, you kind of just have to go for it. Take it. Like, I mean, like wind's bad, still gotta go. Like Yeah ... if you, like, so if you don't, somebody else is going to. Um, I, I didn't... There, I doubt there was anybody else in there.

If there, if there were, I never saw them. Um, so I wasn't in a huge rush. Um, October I think is kind of a funky time of the year because those bulls can like really start to come and go. I was gonna ask about that too- Yeah ... just 'cause like so, uh, I guess going back to that, you decided like, "Hey, let's, let's take October."

I, I'm hit or miss on October. Like it's like one of those things where it's like- Yeah ... [00:21:00] I'll generally find the bi- I, I have had many years where I don't find a shooter bull until October. Yeah. The problem with October is like he's there tomorrow, or he's here today and then gone tomorrow. Yeah. 'Cause it's like you just don't know.

Yeah. He could just walk away. Yeah. I think- What, what have you found? Like what's your thought on October? I think it changes a lot bull to bull. I think like, I think one pretty common like personality trait for big bulls to have is they're almost like a, like a cranky grandpa that just kind of wants to be by himself.

Like- Yeah ... I think more than people realize, like you'll hear like Randy Ulmer talk about this stuff, where a giant will come in at night, hook three or four cows and- Yeah ... go off to some little hidey-hole and won't leave until he has them all bred, and then he'll do the same thing a few times- Yeah ... and then call it a season.

Like- Yeah ... go sleep it off. Yeah. Um, I also think that there's big bulls that'll stay with the same group of cows for three weeks. Um- I think those are mostly private land bulls. Yeah. Well, and it's like- Yeah, yeah ... I [00:22:00] think it, it's just a, if you just look at like statistically, is a bull gonna survive if he does the same routine, right?

No. Routine bulls get killed. Yeah. Like that's just what it is. Yeah. And, you know, bulls get old by being sporadic. They're not smart, they're sporadic. Yeah. You know? They're like, they're wanderers. They're like here today... I think, you know, the Rand- the, the Randy Ulmer bull, which is like the bull that slips in at night, pulls cows away, he's gonna live to be old too.

Yeah. Um, but I also, man, the bulls that just are nomadic or just like... And like it's funny, 'cause like I don't consider it intelligent anymore, 'cause I've just watched these big bulls, like obviously hot cows, going crazy, breeding cows- and then stand up at 11:00 AM and scream his face off- ... walking away. And you're like, "It just doesn't make sense."

Yeah. Like, like just watching- Yeah ... this bull scream, and like, I... This one big [00:23:00] bull I was on, like, I don't know, middle of the day, he just turns and leaves, and like, satellites come back in to his herd, and he's, like, screaming at them, but he's just leaving. Yeah. And then, like, by the time he got a quarter mile away, you just watch him, like- Yeah

keep going. You're like, "What a weird behavior." Yeah. I think, I think they're a lot like hu- Like, they just have different personalities. Yeah. Like, they just have different... Like a j- Like a bull that gets to be 360 in the generals, like, that bull, maybe he's smart, maybe he isn't, but he has something that he likes to do that keeps him alive.

100%. Yeah. Like, he just has, maybe it's where he ruts, maybe it's where he winters, um, maybe it's something he does during our five-week-long rifle season. Right. 100%. Like, maybe just lives in the same little timber patch and doesn't leave it. Yep. But they have something that keeps them alive. You know, there's this, uh, this bull I grew up with, who's relatively famous now, but, like, I got to watch this [00:24:00] bull get really, really old and really, really, really big, and he's Roosevelt.

And man, he was nomadic. He was like... I still, to this day, don't have any idea what he did or where he went, but then he got old and was doing dumb things. He got, like- Got lazy. I, yeah, maybe lazy. Yeah. But, like, uh, he would, like, join- Alzheimer's. Yeah. Yeah. He just started doing weird things that were out of pattern.

So, like, so I watched this bull probably from four years old to at least eight or nine- Mm-hmm ... and, like, would disappear. He'd show up, drop his sheds in the same place every year on a neighbor's farm, and, like, no one ever knew. Yeah. You saw him then, and that was it. Yeah. And, like, even then, you'd see him, like, only at night.

He was never in the field in the day. Mm-hmm. Like, bulls that were with that group would be out in the morning, but he wouldn't. So it was like, but then as he got really old, like, he'd just be right next to the highway, you know? And you're like, "What are you doing?" And then he'd be like, during season- ... and, like, [00:25:00] weird things.

Like, definitely changed his pattern. Yeah. And I know how he got killed, and, like, obviously it was, like, wrong place, wrong time. Um- Yeah ... it's just interesting to me. Like, I feel like they do get maybe lazy or whatever. I... Back to that point about, like, I think about this with rifle. When you want to find a bull, you almost have to look out of the ordinary because if you're trying to look for everything else, you're not gonna find the H class, right?

Mm-hmm. You find these, like... So in Oregon, generally speaking, you're hunting, like, very, very big canyons, and you're, like, searching, like, canyon. So similar, like, little pockets, right? Yeah. And so, like, these elk will hold up, and big bulls like to find small pockets, and they live in them, right? Generally speaking, they're away from the numbers because that'll get a bull killed, right?

If, if everyone's hunting and they're like, "Oh, they could hunt this canyon and they're gonna see 10 bulls in that canyon- Yeah ... the biggest one's gonna get shot out." Yeah. So I think it's not how smart they are, I think it's like the pattern they run, right? Yeah. [00:26:00] It's like something different about that bull.

Mm-hmm. I do think the same thing happens out east. Like I think enough pressure on a lot of these big ranches and they all know about it. I think it's the really sporadic weird behavior that saves a bull's life- Mm-hmm ... but also gets him killed, right? Yeah. It's like he's super wandering, but with that comes wandering across the wrong place the wrong time.

Like think about that world record bull, like well, you know, the story behind that, at least what I've heard. Mm-hmm. Is like that bull was on a ranch, whatever, and just wandered off, and dude was hunting him on public, and here comes this like- Yeah ... 440 bull- Yeah. ... walking right by him. Yeah. Like whatever, it just...

And it's like those, the same things that are sporadic get them killed. Yeah. Which makes big bulls hard to hunt. I do feel like October, man, October's tough, 'cause like big bulls just like to walk away. Yeah. Yeah. Like to cruise and let's go find new girls. Yeah. I, yeah, for sure. Um- [00:27:00] But what's your... Do you, I mean, there's a reason you chose October.

What do you like? Do you like it? Um, I mean, I feel like the last four or five years, Montana Septembers have been increasingly just kind of hot and dry, and you get like- Yeah ... you know, a half hour, 40 minutes in the morning, maybe a half hour in the evening- Right ... if you're lucky. And like as the temperature starts to drop in October, October, I feel like they're just more active throughout the day.

Also, like you have rifle antelope opening. That's- That takes away a bunch of people. You got- I've had, I've had the opposite. So like- Oh, really? I have to like, I, yeah, I have to mentally plan for that, 'cause I have had that screw up a lot of elk hunts. Oh, okay. I guess, yeah. I don't know if that says more about me or them.

I'm not really elk hunting by where there's a bunch of antelope, but I can see how that would be a problem. Oh, yeah. I literally have been like- But like- ... the night before been like, "Why, why are people here?" There's random people, and they're [00:28:00] like, "Oh." Why are they wearing orange? Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just like all hell- Yeah

breaks loose. Yeah. I mean, you have that happening, so that, I think that takes a lot of archery elk hunters out of the field. Like guys' wives drew a rifle tag, and they're gonna take him out east and go shoot an antelope. You got upland bird opening, I think the first week of October. You've got ducks opening the second or third week of October.

And like there's a lot of crossover between archery elk hunters and people that like to do those things, and I think a lot of them just go home, and I think guys just get burnt out. Like- Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. ... if you get like, you get a snow storm, um Everybody Right? Seems like, yeah It starts raining out in September- Yeah

and people are like, "I'm out." Yeah. Yeah. Especially out east, 'cause, like, most of out east, like, the mud just sucks. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, guys don't mess- Like, anyone who's using a camper doesn't mess around with that. Yeah. So it's like- Yeah. Back, I used to hunt [00:29:00] a different unit that I would never hunt now, but, um, it was funny, like, if there was rain in the forecast, it was just like a train of RVs headed to the highway.

Yeah. I, you know, I think- 'Cause nobody wants to get stuck in there ... it, it's a real deal, like a, yeah, gotten squirrely. I think October is my favorite month. I think that, you know, it's like, you know, I saw these, all these proposals for changing the season. Yeah. I was, I was bummed about that because I feel like being able to hunt October is pretty special as a Montana thing.

Yeah, yeah. Not to mention, to your point, like, it's generally speaking 90 degrees in Montana- Yeah ... in most of September. Yeah. So I feel like that's the win. Yeah, and I mean, like, the, from what I understood about that proposal, their, their reasoning for, and people can feel free to message me and correct me on this if I'm wrong-

but I read through that proposal, and it seemed like their reasoning bet- behind shortening the archery season was to [00:30:00] decrease pressure that was- That is amazing ... consolidating elk on private land. And it's like, okay, number one, you clearly haven't hunted October- ... because there's not that many people out there to consolidate all the elk on the private land.

And they're already on private land. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And number two, they'll grow on private because of agriculture and water. Right. Yeah. Like, those are the three things that keep... Like, I'm not saying hunting pressure doesn't contribute to it. Obviously, it does, but it's not, it's not the biggest lever that you can pull.

Right. And it's just like, like you said, it's like a really cool Montana thing that we get to hunt in October, and I think it's like, it's one thing where, like, the guys that really love archery elk hunting, archery hunting in general or whatever, that's like a little bone that they get thrown. Right. It's like, here, you get these two weeks in October, and- Yeah

there's not gonna be that many people out there. The guys that are out there are gonna be ones that, like, really love it and are committed to it. I just think it's a cool thing that we have, and it would be... Yeah, I would probably throw a fit if [00:31:00] that went away, but Oh, yeah. I'd throw a full tantrum. Yeah. Uh, there's so many, so many times where I do feel like the Monday after September, it feels like you have the woods to yourself.

Yeah. And I've hunted places that are pretty busy, and then like, man, I just, it's like Sunday happens, and everyone's gone. Yeah. We shouldn't talk about this 'cause No, we shouldn't. Yeah. I mean, everybody's already talked about it. Like, I think if guys are gonna do it, they're probably already doing it by now, but- That's fair

yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Are you, uh, if you could, and I don't know, do you hunt out of state much, or are you just Montana? Uh, yeah. Uh, I mean, like I've done the Arizona over-the-counter deer thing. I did that last year, shot a buck. Um, and then, I mean, I apply all over, but, um- Getting tags- Having, yeah. Yeah, yeah

everywhere too. Uh, the reason I say that is like, you know, I used to be... I used to look at Montana's October season as a way to [00:32:00] get like, "Oh, that means I can hunt all September somewhere else." Man, I feel like, and maybe I'm just not that great of a hunter, but it takes me all season- ... to kill a elk anyway.

And so, like, I feel like I'm less a fan of like, "Oh, let's go hunt multiple states." Yeah. Maybe you do like a five-day or 10-day rip, uh, if you get a good tag somewhere and then, like, still consolidate Montana as, like, your primary. Yeah. Primary, secondary. Yeah. Like, how do you, like, what's dream scenario if you could hunt two states?

Mm, two states would be, like, something that either opens before or after Montana season's over. I don't know. I think we're, like, just so lucky to be able to hunt the places that we get to hunt pretty much every year as residents here. And, like, honestly, it's kind of crazy that we get to. Yeah. See, I'm bitching about a general tag-

and like you're like, "Ah, you suck. You get to hunt every year." Yeah. But like, some of the stuff that [00:33:00] we can hunt, like, pretty much every year, like you didn't draw this year, which sucks. Right. I'm sorry. But man, that's a really freaking good tag. Like- I know. I shouldn't complain- Yeah ... 'cause there's a lot of people that, like, would kill to have, you know, that tag.

Yeah. Which I know. If, if you're a person that li- doesn't live in a state where you can resident hunt, like that's- Yeah, yeah ... I mean, that's a personal problem. Yeah. But just, like, being able to hunt out east pretty much every year, like I would probably take that archery tag over, I mean, maybe like a really good Nevada tag.

I would, like, trade out my- Right. Oh, I've had this- ... Montana tag- ... I've had this thought multiple times. Like- ... for something less ... unless it's a top 10% Arizona tag, a top 10% Nevada tag, or a top 1% New Mexico tag, I wouldn't- Yeah ... I'm staying home. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, like I'm, so that's kind of always gonna be, I think, prioritized over anything else outside of like a, [00:34:00] something crazy like a sheep or goat tag.

Um, but if I was gonna have two tags every year, like dream scenario, it would be like an early season Nevada. Yeah. Something that starts and ends before Montana openers. Yeah. Or, you know, like, uh, I really, I'm a fan of like some of these late archery tags that are, um, states are kind of starting to move to.

Yeah. Like, I think having a regular Montana tag and then being able to go, like- November, December somewhere else and hunt a late archery tag. I think that's pretty sweet All right. Honestly, I would take late archery or a late rifle. Yeah. I love late tag. I c- Yeah ... I'm a huge fan. I think it's super underrated, hunting big bulls late.

I ... Something about it. Yeah. It's so different than what- Yeah ... we do in September, but, like, at the same time it's ... I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. Trying to find a bull is ... Trying to find a bull in December, November is like a needle in a haystack. Mm-hmm. Right? [00:35:00] Whether it's a rifle or a bow. Like, I do think the rifle is, like, all the work is trying to find it.

Once you find it- Yeah ... like, it's fairly easy to kill. But, like, man, all those tags, like, there's ... Finding that needle in a haystack is- Yeah ... the fun part to me, and you still gotta cover a ton of ground. Yeah. Yeah. I've b- I actually put in for the Utah late, a Utah late archery tag. Yeah. Um, mainly 'cause I'm like, "I'm never gonna draw."

Yeah. You know? And so- Yeah. Yeah. It was- They probably made that tag just 'cause they saw how many guys were just never gonna draw. Yeah. Like, "We gotta get them to keep buying points, so- Right ... give them something." I know, and like, I kind of said I was gonna, like, get a late archery in Utah and then just be done with the damn state.

Yeah. And I've said this multiple times, and I'm not putting in anymore. If I drew it, though, and like, you kill a giant on a late archery tag in Utah, you're like, "Eh, might as well." That would be sweet. It'd be sweet. Yeah. Those late [00:36:00] archery ones f- look, look fun. I should be ready to draw Arizona here in the next couple years, so.

Nice. Yeah. You going archery? Yeah. Do you rifle hunt at all or just archery? I do a little bit. I haven't shot anything with a rifle in quite a while. Um, I don't know. I, like, my dad was a, like, a stick bow guy and eventually switched to a compound just because he, like, destroyed his shoulder Right ... from shooting a recurve for so long.

Um, but yeah, he was like ... God, I don't ... I can't remember when he ever shot anything with a rifle. I know he has, I just don't ... I can't ... It's, it's been a long time, so I, like, didn't really grow up rifle hunting. It's not that I, like, couldn't get into it or think it's cool or fun or anything. Um, I'll probably shoot a bear with a rifle this year, so.

It's a start. Yeah. To me it's like- Yeah ... uh, dream scenario, great archery [00:37:00] tag and a great late rifle tag. I love late rifle- Yeah ... for some reason. Yeah. It's ... I don't know. Depends on the tag, like. Sounds cold. Well, that's 'cause, like, Montana is miserably. Yeah. Rifle sea- yeah. Dude, rifle season in Montana is brutal.

Um- Yeah ... but imagine it's, like, if you had a limited, I don't know, limited out east tag, right? Pick a tag, whatever. Yeah. Or are you actually hunting big bulls? Big bulls, not- Mm-hmm ... lots of bulls. Yeah. Is that different? But I like both. Okay, so what's, um, what's your biggest, like, I would say, like here's what most people make the mistake of, here's what I've learned, like I feel like you hunt pretty open country.

Mm-hmm. This could be an open country question, it could be an any elk hunting question. What is like the one thing people suck at or screw up? Um, I think people don't [00:38:00] understand elk densities and how you have to change your tactics when you're dealing with a low density population. Like prime example, um, this was the only, the only other hunter I saw all season.

It was opening weekend, and I was parked on the road. I was like 10 yards off of it. And, uh, this guy stops and he was like, "How's it going?" I was like, "Good. What's up?" And he's like, "Oh, you look like you're elk hunting. You finding anything?" And I was like, "Not a thing." Not a thing. I had a 360 bull in my scope.

And talked to the... He's a super nice guy. I talked to him for a bit and, uh, you know, he and, he and his girlfriend were walking around with a hoochie mama all morning, like- No. It really is- Yeah. And I mean, like you're in an area where like 99% of the country does not have elk in it, like- Right ... and the ones that are there are moving a lot and you just have to...

Like [00:39:00] this year, like I set the goal of killing a big bull, and I put my calls away and said, "Maybe I'll see you later, but- Yeah ... I'm not touching you this year." And I'm actually gonna change that next year, 'cause I had a few situations this year where it would've been handy to be able to bugle in the dark.

Um, but yeah, I, I, I kind of think in Eastern Montana when you're learning it, it's good to just like draw a hard line and go like, "No calling." Mm-hmm. "I'm hunting them like deer." Uh, that's ... Okay. I want to, I want to circle it. I want to get into that, but I want to answer the question first, which I, I actually agree.

Blows my mind some people still walk around with hoochie mamas. I thought we had like shamed them out of the country- ... but apparently not. We need to work on that. Yeah. Well, he was like, "Uh, yeah, we were in here last deer season and saw a couple bulls and decided to apply for it." And I was like, "Well." I, that feels pretty accurate.

Yeah. I had a very similar [00:40:00] situation, like just walk up the hill, was walking this bull. He's only like mid 330s, but like good bull. I don't know, it was like actually as I was talking to him, was on the fence of telling him whether it was- Yeah. But dudes are like, "Yeah, I don't know, we bugled all the way up and down this."

They- Yeah ... I'm like, it is, first of all- ... it's 20 mile an hour wind right now. I, maybe, maybe if there's an elk within 100 yards of you- Yeah ... like that would've worked, but it's like There's zero chance. Yeah. Like, you're gonna... Yeah, to your point. I, man, that's crazy that the whole calling thing is still... I feel, I thought we figured that out.

Um, I also feel like- Dude, no, I think everybody's just watching Born and Raised and Phillips on YouTube, and they, like, don't really take that into consideration. Like, everybody wants to call bulls in, which, great. Like- Yeah, that's crazy. The other thing is, like, I think the number, the amount of ground you have to cover to find bulls would surprise- Yeah

people. And I, it's not that I [00:41:00] don't think calling would work, because I do think that, like, maybe calling at night would work, but, like, just the amount of ground you have to cover is pre- Like, a bugle tube is not gonna do it, right? No. Like, you have to be glassing- Yeah ... like, miles upon miles. Yeah. Um, to, like, find, uh, to get an elk, right?

And, like, I think, to your point, people watch YouTube. They say, like, "Oh, here's how you elk hunt." Mm. "Let's apply that." The reality is, is, like, it's just very different. Um, I also do feel like, and I think this would be true for call it Western Montana, anywhere really, the assumption that elk are behind every tree- Yeah

is, like, the assumption that even, like, I don't know, like, every basin has elk. Yeah. Like, every basin doesn't have elk. No. That's just a hard fact. Yeah. And I think once you figure that out, you're like, "Oh." And so I, I cut my teeth hunting Roosevelts, which is like, you could cover [00:42:00] 20 miles in there- Yeah ... you might cross one.

And so, like, it's very similar. It's com- uh, uh, absolutely completely different, but also very similar in the way you hunt Eastern Montana- Mm-hmm ... which is like you have to just cover a lot of ground. Yeah. I, I think if I could get one thing to people, in people's heads, is, like, understanding that concept of like- Mm-hmm

you may watch a video on YouTube, and these guys are into elk all the time. But then, like, just understand that they cut that. Yeah. It's like that was the one day. Yeah, it took seven days to get that 20-minute clip. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think... I don't know. I think that- Yeah ... to your point. Yeah.

Okay. So back to, uh, the other piece of that, which was, um, I don't know, th- like, this entire concept. When you think about, I don't know, covering ground, like, how, how, like, how are you, like... I- I wanna say, like, searching for elk or east- not scouting, but, like, when you think about, like, how, [00:43:00] how much ground you have to cover, you know, you're talking about, like, little spots covering lots of miles.

Like, how, without giving too much away- Um ... how do you, like, think about the area in which you hunt? Because I, the, the reason I ask that, kind of a follow-up to this, is like- A lot of guys will come to me and say, "Okay, um, here's my plan to hunt here and here." I'm like, "That's a day." Mm-hmm. Your whole week- I think that's- Yeah

the next step is understanding how much you have to cover. I don't know if you have any insight into that or like- Yeah, I mean, like, are you talking, like, going into a unit, like no experience there? Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, well, before you leave the house, actually, like, before you even think about, like, in the off-season, you should be researching and I'm not gonna say too much, but I'll just say-

that there's, you can find stuff online that, like, [00:44:00] should not be public information. Like- ... like, you can get a really good starting point before you get in the truck to leave home. Um, and then once you get there and you have a few different starting points, I think you just kind of need to rapid fire through those until you find elk.

Like, find the best vantage that you can look at a place that you're interested in. Look at it for a morning. If you don't see anything, buzz to the next one. Do that in the evening. If you don't see anything there, buzz to the next one. Do that the next morning. And, like, if you do that enough, you're gonna eventually find something.

Like, you gotta have good glass, you gotta have a good tripod. Like, there's a few things that you need to have to be able to do that. But yeah, you should, you should be spending a ridiculous amount of money on fuel. Like- Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, yeah, spend money on diesel. Yeah. When you think about, um,[00:45:00]

looking at new areas, you know, you had talked, we had talked a little bit about this, like, lots of elk versus little amount of elk. Mm-hmm. Now there's you and I who are shopping for the 1% or the 5% or whatever you want to call it. What advice would you give? Like, if you were, like, I don't know, let's call you a 101 hunter.

You're like- Mm-hmm ... trying to get to a 201, like a, you know, kind of figuring out whatever. Do you lean towards more elk or less elk? Uh, personally, I- Yeah ... personally, I'm gonna lean towards less elk. Um, number one is because elk attract people. Like, just like we were talking about earlier, like, the few units in the generals that have the most elk happen to be where all of the- Most

non-residents go. So, like, you're kind of looking for, like, if you want to be, like, on the leading edge of, like, having places before they're discovered, [00:46:00] um- You should know where, where established elk herds are and, like, what are the offshoots of that. Like- Mm ... if these elk are growing in population, like, where could these little offshoots of that herd be going?

Um, and there's ways to figure that out. But, um- The thing to me, though, like, just to kind of reiterate your point, which is lots of elk doesn't le- equal lots of opportunity because- Yeah ... lots of elk equals lots of people, which equals screwed up scenarios. Yeah. Okay? Like, elk, they don't talk. Like, if you really want to, like, see elk behavior, like, even if you want to call an elk, I think a lot of people want to bugle an elk if they want to call an elk.

Even if you want that, more elk does not a- almost ever equal that. Yeah. It almost always equals quiet elk because there's too many people. Mm-hmm. So you're like, best case scenario, you're trying to find elk that [00:47:00] aren't molested in some way so they still act like elk. Yeah. And maybe that's just like, generally speaking across the board, elk tend to, like, second they get pressure, they stop kind of doing the things you want them to do.

So, like, I'm always trying to find unmolested elk. Yeah. I mean, like, guys, like now it seem ... I mean, to preface this, like, the hunting where all the elk are and all the people are, like, that was me five years ago 'cause, like, my ... It was like classic scenario. Like, my dad hunted this drainage, killed a few bulls in there, and that was where I, like, when I was 18, 19, first started elk hunting, and I was like, "God, I'm just, like, getting so close, and then people screw it up every time."

Like, it's just terrible. And finally got out of that rut. Um, but it's like[00:48:00]

guys think, um, especially now, that going deep, like, like, you get X amount of miles away from the trailhead and you're gonna have elk to yourself. Like, dude, I had a buddy last year that, um, went into a spot, I want to say it was, like, seven and a half miles, and, like, not easy miles, and there was three tents in the same basin as him.

It's like Dang. I mean, like, you just kind of figure out, have to figure out what is attracting people, and, like, if I want to hunt with that many guys, I'll hunt right next to the road. Right. Like, like- I ... It's a balance. So, like, any time you choose a spot, and I talk about this in east county, like, everything is a balance, right?

Like, we go for low, low populations- Mm ... 'cause we get age class, right? Well, we get no people and we get age class. Like, that's ki- like- What we're looking for is age class. If you want at-bats, you shouldn't look for [00:49:00] age class. Yeah. You should look for unmolested elk, which is still a balance. So, like, let's say 15 miles into the wilderness, you're gonna get into, like, maybe no people.

Like, let's say 25 miles in. Yeah. You're gonna get into no people. The problem with that is, like, your at-bats are still as low- Yeah ... as hunting right here behind Bozeman. Yeah. Because what happens is that those are ... Anytime you have wilderness, it seems very low populations, right? Yeah. And so, like, your, your logistics are so much harder that it's like you have to, you know, travel mileage, you have to move camp, you have to do all these things versus, you know, say, I don't know, hunt the canyon, right?

If I hunt the canyon, I can drive to a different trailhead every day, and either I get into elk or I don't, and maybe there's people, but, like, for the most part, I can cover a lot of ground because I have this cool thing called a vehicle. And, like, this has happened in New Mexico where it's like you can go super [00:50:00] deep, and the problem is that you have one herd of elk, and you're chasing this one herd of elk for- Yeah

six days, right? And they might move four or five miles, and it's, like, kind of a pain every time I do that. Yeah. Eh, or it's like I could just go mess with, you know, five different herds of elk when I'm from my truck. It's a balance because the five herds of elk tend to have other people, and, like, maybe they get bumped depending on how many tags are in the unit.

But, like, it's never as easy as like, "Well, if I go deep, I'm not gonna have people." Yeah. You know, it's like you might get unmolested elk- Mm-hmm ... and they want to act like elk, which is super- Mm ... cool when it happens, but at the same time, like, you have this other problem, which is like now either there's three of your best friends or- Yeah

it's like you're, you're having to go miles or, like- Yeah ... to bump them, and then what? Like, you- Yeah ... you go. They're low if they're low density. So- Yeah ... I guess the point of that is, like, it's always, like, a balance. Mm-hmm. Um, you can have a lot of elk and a lot of people, [00:51:00] which is gonna create more problems.

Yeah. You can have a low number of elk and maybe no pro- like, no people, but, like- Yeah ... there's low numbers, so you gotta be able to cover a ton of ground. So, like, y- I don't think there's any, like ... Maybe on, like, 20-point tags. Yeah. Those are great, but for the most part, I, I feel like it's just kind of like you're, you're

It's a balancing act. Yeah, yeah. Um, couple things on that. I think if you want to go deep and hunt by yourself and probably have some good hunting, probably find elk, now I think you kind of have to go into grizz country. Hmm. Like, I think that deep in grizz country still kind of equals no people. I think that deep in a range that still has grizzlies but is not historically known to have grizzlies You're gonna be with, you're gonna be like my buddy was with three other tents in the same basin.

Yeah. You know? The grizzlies really keep the non-residents out. [00:52:00] Yeah. Yeah. And they are, they're still always the ones that stumble into them. It's true. This is true. It's like, "So you guys from Iowa shot him with nine mils." Yeah. It's like, "Damn, again?" What are they doing? Uh, I mean, yeah, I mean, like the Gravellys is a great example of- Yeah

like dude, dudes stumbling around with grizzlies everywhere. Yeah, and yeah, that's, the Gravellys is kind of a weird anomaly, 'cause there is grizz fricking everywhere over there. Right. And there's still just tons of people and non-residents, but the thing about the Gravellys is there's fricking roads everywhere and like you can't really...

There's like some places where you can get deep, but there's not many, and I think the ones that are there attract people. But yeah. Yeah. I have to think the Gravellys and the Little Belts are stacked with roads. Dude. And like stacked with non-residents. Yeah. The Little Belt's probably worse, 'cause they don't have like any grizz- Well, [00:53:00] they do have grizzlies, but like- Yeah

they're not as much as the- Not, not officially. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, dude, those places just get loaded with people. Yeah. Yeah. They're everywhere. So you used to hunt, like, okay, so you used to call. I actually have only known you as like an open, open country guy, but you used to do more elk calling? Yeah, I mean, like hunting the generals, like, I mean- Back when you hunted with me

it's funny, like my dad was like, my old man was like anti-call. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So he was like, like when I first started elk hunting, he was like, like, "Glass them up and just like try to get in front of them." He was like, "That's the protocol." Oh, really? He's like, he's like, "Stick to the plan." He called it the Running W.

He was like, "Just go in. You're not gonna catch up to them. Bump out, go in again." He's like, "You're gonna want-" The Running W. Yeah. He was like, he was like, "You're gonna want to puke by the end of it, but like if you just stick with it, you'll get a shot." I was like, "Okay." And so I like started doing [00:54:00] that, and then I, I want to call it a mistake.

I made the mistake of like starting to watch Born and Raised and Phillips and started calling more. Yeah. And I d- like I've called in plenty of elk, um, but like I've heard you say it 1,000 times, "When all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails." Yeah. And it just, like you find yourself just like stress bugling, like, "Where are they?"

You know? You're just like- I love that term ... you don't know what else to do, and you're just kind of running around bugling and- Yeah ... probably just scaring elk every time. Scaring. Oh, that's funny. Um, and yeah, I mean like two years ago after I killed my bull, I called him in and, uh, I, I was just like, that was after I'd come back from my knee injury, and I was just like You know, this like, I've had a lot of hobbies like I love to fish, I love to bird hunt, um, used to ski a lot and it was kind of went like, man, this is like my [00:55:00] thing.

Like, everything else can kind of go by the wayside for a while. Mm. Like, all of my spare time and energy is going into this thing, and that's kind of how the trying to find bigger bulls in Eastern Montana thing came about. But, uh, yeah, I don't know, like calling is effective with unmolested elk, and it's effective if you're really good at it on pressured elk.

Like, a guy like you, I think that you could probably go into a, a heavily pressured unit in Colorado and- In Colorado ... and just like softly cow call- Right ... right next to the bedding area for 17 hours and- Right. ... eventually one would come out and stick them. But like, most guys aren't gonna do that. They're gonna be like, "Oh, I watched Cory Jacobson- Mm

hike 17 miles and bugle 3,000 times- Yeah ... so I'm gonna do the same thing and it's gonna work." And it's like they don't understand that a guy like Cory Jacobson is literally doing 17 miles a day bugling every 100 yards- Right ... and like eventually one pipes [00:56:00] off, but good God, that guy's walking past a lot of elk.

Like- 100%, yeah. So yeah, I, I still think it's really popular for guys to call, and I would, I would encour- I, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling, but like, you know, maybe try glassing them up before you go call at them. Yeah. You may as well know where they are. Right. Like- If you can. Yeah. Well, which is funny because like- If it's glassable country, yeah

it, uh, well, and that's kind of the thing I was gonna say is that like I feel like now with the popularity of e-scouting, everyone is like turning towards glassable country. Yeah. And w- like, you know, like it's kind of the popular thing. Yeah. This is the next back country, which is my concern. Yeah. It's just like, you know, everyone will want to go in the back country.

Like, oh shit, this is hard. Yeah, it's scary. It's not that great. It's like these dudes doing open country stuff, like I always gonna do that. And even my b- so Travis, a good friend of mine, and he's like, [00:57:00] you know, hunted a bunch of stuff and he's like, he hunted, I would call Central Montana and was like, "Oh my God, glassing's the way to go."

"So much easier." And I was like, "Yeah." Like, I mean, the downside of that is like I feel like when you get to like, let's call it moderate, like open country is like a new level playing field where it's like you have to be really good at figuring out where elk are. Yeah. But like- Yeah ... moderate glassable country, everyone knows the glassing points and like it's like- Yeah

a different, it's the same competition but like different, right? Yeah. Whereas put me in, I don't want to say Northwest Montana, but like everything is like unglassable- Yeah It's kind of a strategic advantage again, right? Yeah. And so, like, I feel like the middle ground, which is, like, it's still elk country, using air quotes here- Mm-hmm

because not elk country is very difficult. Yeah. Right? Like, we're talking could be a 50 miles between herds of elk. Yeah. [00:58:00] And that's very difficult to figure out. It took me a long time. The, the middle ground where it's, like, open enough to glass- Mm-hmm ... I feel like that's getting hammered- Yeah ... with dudes- Probably

like, glassing all the same things. Yeah. So- Yeah ... um- Yeah, I can get on board with that. That's probably right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I... Dude, we earned it last year. We like, you know, we got to hunt private, and it was the hardest hunt I've ever had. Like, just like, we went back to, like, cold calling and- You're like, "What a rip-off" Yeah.

"I thought this was easy." "I was so stoked on private" and it was like- ... "I'm gonna have to earn a five-point boy soon." But like, going back to, like, cold calling days, right? Yeah. Um, and just, like, setting up and calling. Like, ah, you have to figure 99% of dudes are just trying to kill an elk. Yeah. Like, uh, and I s- I, I would say, like, trying to kill a six-point, right?

Called in a lot of bull- like, we called in bulls, and none of them were sexy. Like, we got, you know, like, [00:59:00] one or two good, like, little calling fests, but it was, like, very classic, what I would call, like, my old Idaho days- Yeah ... where it's like, elk are gonna do what elk do. They don't care about you. Yeah.

You're just trying to follow them. Yeah. Uh, but, like, ah, it was fun. I haven't called in a long time, uh, and last year we did. I would say, yeah, it was successful. Like, but the, you know, like, the bull Jarrett killed never said a peep. Mm-hmm. Came in quiet. Um, it was kind of a cool, like, five-point, but like, that still works.

Yeah. And I feel like- Yeah ... maybe people, I don't want to say poo-poo it. I don't, I don't know that, like, the Corey Jacobs... I, I should have Corey on to see, like... I would love his opinion on, like, "Hey, does it still work to do the same stuff?" I used to like- Well, it works for him 'cause he's, like, a marathon runner.

Right. Right. Yeah. Like, he's gonna just cover more country than anybody else in the world, but- I, dude, I used to be- ... Yeah, I like, 100% was that way, and like, I don't know if it's, like, just if you grew up on [01:00:00] Roosevelts and... But, like, I would... But dude, in 2010, '11, '12, there was- Yeah ... always another elk. Yeah. Like, you could just, like, go.

You, you didn't care about bumping elk- Yeah ... because, like, you knew four more herds, and it was like, "All right, let's just go, like, let's go mess with this one." And, like, no one else was messing with them, so it was like, dude, I remember being in Idaho and, like, having five or six different herds and just, like, totally screwing up each one and just, like, having a rotation.

Yeah. And like, you were just like- Yeah ... "Oh, there's a herd down here." Like, you would just... You would be so aggressive because it didn't matter. Because why not? Why not? Why not? Like, it, it was like, I don't... There wasn't really the, like- You know, when you get out east, you're like, "Don't screw this up." "Oh my God, they're out in public.

Oh my God." And then you're like, you kind of tiptoe, right? Yeah. And you're like, you do want to tiptoe. Yeah. And you're like, "It's gotta be perfect. The wind's gotta ... Everything's gotta be perfect." Yeah. Dude, in the old days, it was like, just run in there, like- Yeah ... let's just see what happens. Guns blazing.

Like, guns [01:01:00] blazing. We're totally gonna screw it up, like cool. And I don't know, I feel like back in those days, the elk would just go right back to where they were. Yeah. I don't know if it was just Minnesota, but it was like, you'd chase these elk- Yeah ... and then the next morning they're in the same spot screaming.

And you're like- Yeah ... "Let's do it again." Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like there's all this talk about the hunter numbers and whether they're going up or down or not, but l- like one thing is certain, there's a whole lot of more people archery elk hunting and calling. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, they get accustomed to that.

Yeah. It must. Yeah. It seems. Uh, you know what? I don't know. I still think it works, I will say that. Like- Yeah ... last year, one of the first days, like, uh, Travis was with me. Bull started piping off. I mean, there was ... It was fun to go back and, like, try calling again. Yeah. In this, I mean, not open, open country, but, like, edge of open and timber.

And we had this bull, and I was, like, trying to just, like, walk Travis through some scenarios or [01:02:00] whatever. We, like, get up on this ridge way before dark, or before light, and, um, bull pipes off, and I could just tell, small bull, he's moving. And I was like, old me would've, like, tried so hard to run that bull down.

Yeah. And I was like, "Let's just wait and see what happens," right? And this bull pipes off again, and I was like ... And, like, now you understand. You're like, "Okay, let the bull come to you," right? I don't know, we sat there 10, 20 minutes, and like, he's just coming up, coming up. I was like, "It's kind of work. Let's just see if we can, like, negotiate him a little closer- Yeah

to us," right? And we, like, do that and, like, play it, play it. Calling pretty sporadically. Old me would've, like, ran at the bull, tried to force it. Yeah. And it was like, we ... Well, one of the things about that was, like, as we were going from the high point down to, like, kind of get where this bull was, you notice a lot of sign, and you're like, "Oh, these elk are coming to here."

Mm-hmm. This obviously is where they've kind of been hanging out. So we just kind of keep working this bull, keep working this [01:03:00] bull, and this bull comes right all the way up to us, and it was like- ... yeah, it was like mid-340s bull. Yeah. Great bull. Came right up kind of in the area. It actually, like, went right by Travis.

We just kind of m- dismissed- Mm-hmm ... you know, it just happened. And, uh, and it was like, I don't know if I called that bull in or I was just calling from where he wanted to be, you know? Yeah. And it's just like, that's the true lesson of being- Yeah ... to your dad's point, like, the running W, right? Like- It's 100 times easier to call the bull where he's going anyway- Yeah

than it is to try to, like, move him away. Yeah. Old me was like, feels like I was always chasing bulls up the mountain trying to call them back. Yeah. And you're like, "I don't know. Figure out where they're trying to go- Yeah ... and just be there." Maybe you don't even need to call. Maybe it's like- Maybe that's just like, you get older, you understand elk, where they're going, what they're doing- Yeah

and you can be there without saying a word. Yeah. And the calling was kind of irrelevant. 'Cause I do feel [01:04:00] like old me, man, was like, find them in the middle of the night. Yeah. Try to get in striking range, and then try to, like, follow them up the mountain. Yeah. And, like, so much extra effort. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

It's, there, one thing with calling that I will say is, like, the first time I called a bull in and tried to shoot him, I don't even know if I looked through my peep sight, honestly. Like, there's just, like, I wouldn't do that now, but your first time shooting at a bull elk, like, you're going to be losing your mind, and there's so much that's out of your control when you're calling.

Like, how the bull comes in, when you need to stop him, like, when you need to draw your bow, and you can just control so much more when you're finding them- Yeah ... and then stalking them. When you stocked up on your bull this year, do you feel like you were like, "All right. Let's just execute"? Like- Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. I mean- It is an interesting one, like, [01:05:00] they call it, like, ninja, where it's like the bull doesn't even know you exist in the world. Yeah. And you're like, I don't know, it's weird because I think, like, the first, I don't know, dozens of bulls I shot were all called in. Yeah. Or, like, me personally calling them, whatever, and then you, like, sneak in on a bull that has no idea you're there.

To me it was like, felt like cheating. Yeah. It was like, it was like this bull doesn't even know I'm here. Yeah. Which is, like, so much easier to execute a shot. Yeah. Just take your time, settle that pin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would, actually, when I popped up over that edge and I, like, ranged him, he ran off and came back, I was like, I had just, like, put tension on my string, drawn my bow, and I, like, looked to my right a little bit and every single cow in the herd was staring at me.

I was like, "Oh, God. This is about to explode." "Like, I got to get this done." Which I hate that feeling. Yeah. You feel rushed. Yeah. It's like, ah. And I, I didn't really even feel [01:06:00] rushed just 'cause I knew, like, they didn't know what I was. They just saw, like, saw me draw my bow and pop up, but he had no idea I was there.

Like, h- all of his attention was on that hog cow. Yeah. So I wasn't too worried about it. Punched one in there and yeah. Is your go-to, like, back to open country tactics, I feel like the standard strategy is, like, get 60 yards from a hog cow and wait. Is that kind of your MO? Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I don't know, I guess I'm kind of like talking like I know a lot more than I do, but like I've only killed one big bull in Eastern Montana.

Um,

I think i- if you have a consistent wind, I think that's a great move. Um- That's right ... that said, winds are rarely consistent in Eastern Montana. Um, I don't know. I think my favorite is probably transition stuff. Oh, really? Like where you can just kind of see where they're going and get in front of them.

[01:07:00] And like those, I say those elk were bedded, like most of the cows were bedded, but they were like ready to get up and move, you know? Mm-hmm. They weren't gonna stay there all day. They're, if I hadn't come in there, they probably would've been up and gone within 10 minutes. Do you like morning versus evening?

Uh, probably morning. Mm. Um, well, I don't know.

I like that in the evening a lot of times the wind has died down and you get a consistent thermal. Right. Um, I don't know. Maybe I just like sunrises. Uh, mornings are hard because elk, I'm trying to think of the last few bulls, uh, yeah, 50/50. Eh, actually I kill them more in the morning in the last five years.

Um, man, yeah, I feel like mornings are tougher, but like at the same time, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, cutting them off in the [01:08:00] evening as they're coming to feed I think is a great move. Yeah. Um, but I guess same can go for them headed up to bed in the morning, you know? Dude, the problem I've always had with like headed to bed is like, it's like herding cats.

You know? Fuck. Your guess is like- Especially when there's chaos and they're- Oh ... it's just a frenzy and- Yeah. And you, uh, fuck Yeah ... I, maybe I suck at it, but like it just feels like it's never the same thing twice. Yeah. And I feel like I chase them more than I'm like, you're just trying to keep up. Mm-hmm.

The whole like moving 10 miles thing is very difficult. Yeah. I'm like, learned that the hard way. Yeah. It's like you gotta like just guess the first three miles and then like start there- Yeah ... 'cause otherwise, I mean, God. Yeah. At that point, you know, that early, even if you know exactly where they're feeding, it's like- Yeah

it could be way off, so- Yeah ... I don't know. It's, it's very difficult. I feel like the mornings are [01:09:00] super hard. I've had a lot of luck, um, I would say random luck, literal luck in mornings- In chaos situations, like a lot of things have like unfolded Yeah. Mm-hmm But as far as like target bull behavior, very difficult Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I s- I do feel like mornings are a lot of times more chaotic than evenings. In the evenings it almost seems like they're kind of in a rush to get to feed Mm. Like, they're almost like bee-lining, but mornings they've already fed, like done most of their feeding for the day, and i- if there's enough chaos going on, there's just

You can get away with so much. Right Like, you can run across the wide open 200 yards from them and probably not gonna screw anything up. Right You know? And the evenings feel more ... I would say, I would agree with that, like- Yeah, like they're more focused ... cows seem ... Yeah. Yeah Cows seem super alert- Yeah ... in the evenings.

Cows seem not alert in the mornings. Mm-hmm. I think that's accurate. I don't know. I've had like, go [01:10:00] both ways, so- Yeah ... either way. Uh, cool man. I, yeah, pretty epic. We actually ... So we'll shout this out. Um, you wrote another blog. You did a blog for us before. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Put it on the website. We're gonna do another one, so I gotta, I gotta

I'll put it up with this or whatever, so- Sweet ... if you wanna hear some, some insights. Yeah. Um, yeah, we'll put that up as well, so we'll put links in the show notes as well. Um, yeah, I don't know. Anything else? Cool. Good luck this season. Thanks man, you too. Yeah. Cheers Good luck in the Jennys. Ah, geez. Rub it in.

Alrighty guys, thanks for tuning into the show. If you liked this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things.

Pretty great resource. Go check it out. Links in the show [01:11:00] notes, or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.

The October Advantage: Big Bulls, Empty Mountains, and a 58-Inch Giant, Talking Bulls with Gibson Butler

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